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(05-23-2010, 12:07 AM)JamieF Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-09-2010, 05:49 PM)Jesse Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-09-2010, 05:46 PM)JamieF Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-08-2010, 06:03 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-08-2010, 05:12 PM)JamieF Wrote: [ -> ]If you were to take a course in Formal Logic you would build up from there.  Until you have done that, you should not bother at all with theology, metaphysics, etc.  Logic is the essential foundation of knowledge - without it you can't deduce whether what you are reading is true or not.  

OK. I have done a course in Formal Logic.  What is the next step?  I just randomly took 3 philosophy courses that I needed as degree requirements and they don't fit together. (As well as the logic course, I did an survey of existentialism and an intro to Aquinas.)  I really want a good foundation in philosophy because I want to be able to do theology properly.   

You would want to do formal logic, followed by material logic.  That leads to physics, psychology, mathematics, theology and metaphysics.  All of those subjects use the foundations learnt in formal and material logic which is why they are so essential.

Yes, logic is important to understand (since philosophy is all about argumentation), but formal logic can spend so much damn time on symbolic logic, which isn't really necessary as a pre-req to reading and understanding philosophy.  Informal logic is a much better "lay person" intro, especially since it has obvious and immediate application into someone's daily life.

Pax,
Jesse

I missed your comment - sorry for my delay in replying.  Formal Logic does not use symbolic logic - symbolic logic is a false modern system of logic.  True formal logic follows the methods of Aristotle and Aquinas.  It is essential to begin the study of logic with formal logic and follow it by material logic.  There is no such thing as this "informal logic" you are talking about.  Formal logic when studied in the scholastic method is very applicable to every day life as it teaches us how to structure an argument in order to come to the truth.

I suspect you have probably studied logic at a modern school if you think it is about symbolism.  In the class I have just taken in formal logic (taught in the traditional Catholic way) the only mention of symbolic logic was a 2 hour class which taught us the errors of the symbolic method and why it is a failure to be avoided.

Can you please tell us what were the points discussed in demonstrating how modern formal logic is "false"?  Thanks.
(05-22-2010, 10:29 PM)verenaerin Wrote:Is there a Plato/Aristotle for Dummies?

No offense, but what is the purpose of starting with pagans? If I studied Catholics then at least I would be learning more about my faith.

Alfred North Whitehead once said that the entire history of Western philosophy is a footnote to Plato.  Personally, I think it's a footnote to Plato and Aristotle (sorry, Quis!), but either way, you should start at the beginning.  Your reading of Augustine and Aquinas will be much richer for it.

(05-22-2010, 10:50 PM)verenaerin Wrote:Alright guys. If you come up with some philosophy 101 books you can suggest that would be great.

I don't know any specific textbooks (though there should be a "Dummies" book; there is for everything else  :)).  But when it comes to reading actual philosophy, I'd start with Plato's Apology to get a decent grasp of the Socratic method.  After that, maybe Plato's Republic (a lot of his big ideas are in that dialogue).

(05-27-2010, 03:07 PM)Pilgrim Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know any specific textbooks (though there should be a "Dummies" book; there is for everything else  :)).  But when it comes to reading actual philosophy, I'd start with Plato's Apology to get a decent grasp of the Socratic method.  After that, maybe Plato's Republic (a lot of his big ideas are in that dialogue).
Starting with Plato is a very good idea, but the Apology will not help you get a grasp of the Socratic method. It's a monologue, for crying out loud! The Socratic method relies fundamentally on dialogue! The Apology is great, and will definitely introduce you to Socrates in a powerful way, but I'd pick one of the so-called "early" dialogues, too, to get a sense of method. I'd recommend in particular the Euthyphro: that will definitely show you what Socrates is up to and how.
(05-27-2010, 05:22 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]Starting with Plato is a very good idea, but the Apology will not help you get a grasp of the Socratic method. It's a monologue, for crying out loud! The Socratic method relies fundamentally on dialogue!  The Apology is great, and will definitely introduce you to Socrates in a powerful way, but I'd pick one of the so-called "early" dialogues, too, to get a sense of method. I'd recommend in particular the Euthyphro: that will definitely show you what Socrates is up to and how.

What I meant was that the Apology explains the "whys" behind Socrates' mission.  Plus, there is a dialogue in the middle of the text when he examines Anytus, one of his accusers.  As for a dialogue itself, Euthyphro is great, as is Crito.
(05-28-2010, 09:22 AM)Pilgrim Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-27-2010, 05:22 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]Starting with Plato is a very good idea, but the Apology will not help you get a grasp of the Socratic method. It's a monologue, for crying out loud! The Socratic method relies fundamentally on dialogue!  The Apology is great, and will definitely introduce you to Socrates in a powerful way, but I'd pick one of the so-called "early" dialogues, too, to get a sense of method. I'd recommend in particular the Euthyphro: that will definitely show you what Socrates is up to and how.

What I meant was that the Apology explains the "whys" behind Socrates' mission.  Plus, there is a dialogue in the middle of the text when he examines Anytus, one of his accusers.  As for a dialogue itself, Euthyphro is great, as is Crito.
Agreed, Pilgrim.
Plowing through the whole sequence of Socrates trial and death is probably the best way to do things when you're starting out. They're quite dramatic, and cover a range of topics.

Euthyphro -- on the way to the trial
Apology -- at the trial
Crito -- a buddy tries to help Socrates escape from prison
Phaedo -- Socrates dies (plus a bonus look at Plato's theory of the Forms!)
How about instead of recommending books we just start somewhere way back and talk about the ideas behind different philosophies, in as simple a way as possible? As someone said, popes have always encouraged people who CAN learn a bit about philosophy to do so, and nowadays that's all of us. It needn't be a specialist thing any more - everyone should be able to get acquainted with the basic gists of things, and everyone probably wants to.

Do people think it would be worth starting a thread that maybe lists some philosophers/ ideas we could start with and just start talking about them without any highbrow stuff? Even just the names of philosophers can scare people away from the get go, but usually their basic idea is pretty easy to get, and is worth understanding.

Eg What idea did ______ put forward back in ________, and what do we think about it, and how does it apply to our lives as Catholics? In some sort of chronological order? Would people be interested?

(06-02-2010, 03:15 AM)Benno Wrote: [ -> ]Eg What idea did ______ put forward back in ________, and what do we think about it, and how does it apply to our lives as Catholics? In some sort of chronological order? Would people be interested?

I don't know how much help I'll be, but I'm game.
I would give it a try. :)
(06-02-2010, 04:57 PM)verenaerin Wrote:Someone needs to lead it. Philospohy 101. Any takers????

http://www.sapientisinstitute.org/

Classes are just starting.  Enroll in Formal Logic to start with - this is followed by material.  You don't just get the history of philosophy, you learn how to use it correctly according to the methods of the scholastics.
What you can do is sign up for the Formal Logic Free Trial offer. It is 100% free and you have no obligation to continue. You get to download lecture notes and the audio for the lectures. The trial period has been extended but hurry it will be closing soon. 

http://sapientisinstitute.org/trialperiodoffer.html

(06-03-2010, 07:53 AM)verenaerin Wrote:
(06-03-2010, 02:28 AM)JamieF Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-02-2010, 04:57 PM)verenaerin Wrote:Someone needs to lead it. Philospohy 101. Any takers????

http://www.sapientisinstitute.org/

Classes are just starting.  Enroll in Formal Logic to start with - this is followed by material.  You don't just get the history of philosophy, you learn how to use it correctly according to the methods of the scholastics.

Yes I can see it now...

"Dearest husband of mine, I need $250 to take a logic class"
"Why?"
"Can I debate with you over this after the class?"
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