FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: The Yardarm is the Remedy
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
(06-08-2010, 05:20 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Yes the xhrch teahes us but the church is not pacifist individuals and states can and do defend themselves

Fine.  The Church is not pacifist.  But what IS the Church?  What does it teach, DK?  You haven't cited Catholic moral principles once in this discussion.  You have only cited the law of the jungle and the values of Machiavelli, not the law of God and the values of Jesus Christ.

(06-08-2010, 05:20 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]if u r pushing one weird pacifist shit with me u won't get far

Straw man.  We've been through this before.  I'm not a pacifist.  I've cited conditions whereby I think violent actions are justified (but never intentionally or neglectfully against non-combatants).

(06-08-2010, 05:20 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]I am a catholic
u I dunno
as for this situation the blockade and the war we are discussing I have asked u pleny not one queationnu hVe answered
fair enough
don't bother
but what dobh propse isreal do? Lift the blockade then what? What? It's easy to abLe your rotenone finger Another matter to actually offr something besides empty bitching and pacifist rhetoric
the blockade is oncor a reason . U may not wNt to address that reason bt that reason matter s
why is gaza under blockade? What are the izeali conditions for the blockade to be lifted? These are objective questions let's see ifbu can answer but don't answer me  answer them to yourself
that might help u understand the conflict u shownlittle in understanding

You are setting up a false dichotomy.  You make it sound like Israel has only two choices: continue the immoral blockade or suffer total annihilation.  If those are the only two scenarios you can imagine, I'm afraid you have a very poor imagination.

What do I propose Israel do?  I propose it follows the moral teachings of Almighty God, which it will never seek to do because it is anti-Christ.  It may incidentally act in a moral way from time-to-time, but not out of any intent to what is good and just.  Israel's only god is itself.

I think you ought to ask yourself, for your salvation's sake: Do I hate the Muslims to such a degree that I am willing to forsake the moral laws of God to serve this hatred?  Have I made an idol out of my hatred?

It's a valid question, because you validate the deaths of Palestinians while ignoring any discussion of Catholic moral principles and their application to the situation in Gaza.
Not on e have I ever stated isreal has only two choices
I dotnt  Belive that nor have I stated that
Gain I ask u why is gaza under blockade? Reasons matter. Why is gaza undress blockade? QhT are he conditions forthe blockade to be lifted?
If u r sencere these should be prime questions for you
(06-08-2010, 06:40 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Not on e have I ever stated isreal has only two choices
I dotnt  Belive that nor have I stated that
Gain I ask u why is gaza under blockade? Reasons matter. Why is gaza undress blockade? QhT are he conditions forthe blockade to be lifted?
If u r sencere these should be prime questions for you

If the blockade was immoral, reasons for it wouldn't matter, because the church has always proclaimed that morality cannot be rooted in the end justifying the means.
(06-08-2010, 10:46 AM)rbjmartin Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-08-2010, 09:06 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Here is another question for u rbj let's see if this is an easier one for u to answer
has here ever been a moral blockade? Think carefully and mind how u answer

You continue to display your disregard for approaching world affairs from a Catholic perspective.

The answer to your question, from a Catholic moral standpoint, is that if the blockade intends to harm, possibly to a fatal degree, non-combatants, then no, it is not moral.  You cannot intend to do evil and remain within the limits of morality.  The Holy See has been very clear about the immorality of targeting non-combatants in warfare, and a blockade is an act of war because it does violence to an entire population.


Hardly...he is disregarding approaching affairs from your personal opinion...which is pretty far from Catholic


Your take on blockades will not stand up to scrutiny...war sucks...in the Catholic world war is allowed.   In modern warfare...EVERYONE is a combatant...that's just the nature of the modern world...sorry.


You support the effort in some active manner by working in a factory, or housing troops, or applying political pressure.....man that sucks.  


If you pretend to believe that if all current Hamas terrorist and murderers were to be killed or captured by the wonderful IDF the war between the nasty mohams and the poor put upon Israelis would be over...you are fooling yourself or lying....You know full well that if all the murderous Hamas mohams were eliminated...that more would just step into the void to fight the poor Israelis.


(06-08-2010, 05:37 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: [ -> ]You are setting up a false dichotomy.  You make it sound like Israel has only two choices: continue the immoral blockade or suffer total annihilation.  If those are the only two scenarios you can imagine, I'm afraid you have a very poor imagination.

Unfortunately for you...the Israelis do only have ONE option...and that is to continue fighting the nasty mohams...because the mohams are ALWAYS at war with the Israelis...

and fortunately for Israel they do not often take the advice of daydreamers like Chamberlain and cowards to choose which weapons of war to use on the moham scum.
First o alm what is occuring in gaza is nor total war as rbj beloved
really if u want to knowntotal war look at WWII
can WWII cRpet bombing of Germany or nukes and carpet fire bombing of japan really be spoken about in comparison to gaza? Thisnis a typical rbj overstatement andnits bullshit
and Norbert reasons matter isreals reason for the blockade is not to target innocents  so google the reaeon why is isreal is using the blockade instead of other far far car harsher means in it's desposal
if ur only requirment for a blockade to be immoral is it effects innocents then n blockade or siege ever since the fall has been moral
thAt's not what the church teaches
Damn iPhone what he hellll
(06-08-2010, 08:19 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-08-2010, 10:46 AM)rbjmartin Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-08-2010, 09:06 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Here is another question for u rbj let's see if this is an easier one for u to answer
has here ever been a moral blockade? Think carefully and mind how u answer

You continue to display your disregard for approaching world affairs from a Catholic perspective.

The answer to your question, from a Catholic moral standpoint, is that if the blockade intends to harm, possibly to a fatal degree, non-combatants, then no, it is not moral.  You cannot intend to do evil and remain within the limits of morality.  The Holy See has been very clear about the immorality of targeting non-combatants in warfare, and a blockade is an act of war because it does violence to an entire population.


Hardly...he is disregarding approaching affairs from your personal opinion...which is pretty far from Catholic

Please cite the specific Church teaching I have contradicted.  Be specific and do not speak in vague terms.
(06-08-2010, 08:19 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]Your take on blockades will not stand up to scrutiny...war sucks...in the Catholic world war is allowed.   In modern warfare...EVERYONE is a combatant...that's just the nature of the modern world...sorry.


You support the effort in some active manner by working in a factory, or housing troops, or applying political pressure.....man that sucks.  

That is a worldly justification of total war, not a Catholic one.  No where in Catholic moral teaching does it say that one is culpable for the sins of one's government simply by dwelling within its national boundaries.  You are making up heretical teaching.

Catholic doctrine: strict conditions must be met for the war to be just.

Your doctrine: war sucks, war is hell, so anything goes

"Even then, however, one must strive to avoid it by all possible means through international understanding or to impose limits on its use that are so clear and rigorous that its effects remain restricted to the strict demands of defense. When, moreover, putting this method to use involves such an extension of the evil that it entirely escapes from the control of man, its use must be rejected as immoral. Here there would be no longer a question of "defense" against injustice or a necessary "safeguarding" of legitimate possessions, but the pure and simple annihilation of all human life within the radius of action. This is not permitted for any reason whatsoever." - Pope Pius XII, Allocution of Sept. 30, 1954

"The Church desires to win over peoples and to educate them to virtue and right social living, not by means of arms but with the truth." - Pope Pius XII, July 19, 1950

"this most holy Synod makes its own the condemnations of total war already pronounced by recent popes, and issues the following declaration: Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities or of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation." - Gaudium et Spes (80)

Bear in mind that this is probably one of the only statements of the Second Vatican Council that carries a condemnation, so it should not be taken lightly.  This is not a suggestion or a pastoral statement.  It is firm, binding doctrinal condemnation of total war made by all of the bishops in communion with the Pope.
rbj what is occuring in gaza is not total war. do u know what total war is? as opposed to limited war? you do understand they are different don't you?
or should we go through examples of this to show you?
by overstating and using bad comparisons only makes your shit u spew stink more and your full of it. if gaza was total war then what do you call the allied bombing of germany in wwii? a walk in the park?
LOL
the isreali doctrine in gaza clearly shows it to be a limited war not total
total war means something. you should check what it means out before u toss it around the way you do
rbjmartin you lost any hope of regaining even the scent of credibility the minute you quoted gaudium et spes.
(06-08-2010, 09:07 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]rbj what is occuring in gaza is not total war. do u know what total war is? as opposed to limited war? you do understand they are different don't you?
or should we go through examples of this to show you?
by overstating and using bad comparisons only makes your shit u spew stink more and your full of it. if gaza was total war then what do you call the allied bombing of germany in wwii? a walk in the park?
LOL
the isreali doctrine in gaza clearly shows it to be a limited war not total
total war means something. you should check what it means out before u toss it around the way you do

Operation Cast Lead was clearly total war.  The current blockade is simply an extension of it.  The rabbinic policy of showing no mercy to the Palestinians during Operation Cast Lead shows that their agenda is ultimately the elimination of the Palestinian people in Gaza.  The Israelis have openly claimed that they want to put the Palestinians on a "diet." They also claim that the purpose of the blockade is to effect regime change in Gaza because they don't like the fact that the Palestinians elected Hamas.  Now let's think for a minute...if we want to effect regime change in a democracy, who do you have to sway?  The people who vote!  That is why the Israelis are collectively punishing the entire population.  Because they think if they suffer enough, they will elect someone else.  Effective or not, it is an immoral policy because it targets every man, woman, and child by intentionally denying them access to enough food, water, and shelter necessary to preserve normal health.

Arun, when you are elected pope, I will give you some credibility in determining what is Catholic doctrine.  In the meantime, a council consisting of all the bishops in union with the pope has infallible teaching authority when it makes an explicit condemnation.  Not even the SSPX would deny this.  All the pastoral stuff is another matter, but when an ecumenical council makes a solemn declaration consisting of a moral condemnation, you better listen or you're denying the infallibility of the Church.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8