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So is it over, the protestant revolt? Not by capitulation but by rather running its course to its only logical conclusion which is of course extinction.

I want to get your thoughts on this because to me the last few gaps of protestantism was Billy Graham and the Evangelical movement which was more of a cult of personality rather than a movement. Aside from him it has devolved in to some sort of JesusMart of sorts, along with TVangelists and selling condos in heaven types, to 99 cent store Christianity that tends to be more tribal than evangelistic.

In Europe mainline protestantism is very much dead and it has been for a while, the Kirk is joke and Scandinavian countries (Luther's kids) are neo-pagans rather than any type of Christian to which only State even seems to remember that they are Lutheran, though what that means nobody can tell anymore. Presbyterian in mainline Europe is even more pathetic than in Scotland of which the only speck left maybe Rangers FC. Some pentacostals, the annoying Seventh day adventists and other tiny groups have sprang up through central America but do we really think that they will have any lasting power in those overwhelmingly Catholic countries? Without any major government or drastic intervention?

Even in the US only the most conservatives of Lutheran synods (Missouri I think) seems to keep chugging along other than that look at the Methodists who bleed members every year with the worst retention rate and negative growth for the last decade. Presbyterians once again a joke except for isolated pockets in West Virginia. To which we come to the old faithful Southern Baptist (forget about the First Baptists too) their troubles may not be a dire however strongholds like the so called "Bible Belt" has been changing they type of Bible for the last 20 years fair consistently from the one with 66 books to the one with 73.

Catholic growth in American South has been rather dramatic and surprising.

Let us also look at the fact that well read protestants seem to be swimming the Tiber rather often these days not only that but they do so right out of protestant seminary. It seems that shadow of history is catching up with the Solas of protestantism.

I know I did not include Anglicans and Episcopalians, I don't think i need to point out the rather obvious as far as the death of those systems.
American "mainline" and European state churches and Lutheran church in Germany certainly have,

but conservative protestants which broke away from them (i.e. Evangelicals and Pentecostals et al plus the "non-denominationals" many of which are center or center-left) are as healthy and heretical as ever
(08-11-2010, 03:31 AM)Scythian Wrote: [ -> ]American "mainline" and European state churches and Lutheran church in Germany certainly have,

but conservative protestants which broke away from them (i.e. Evangelicals and Pentecostals et al plus the "non-denominationals" many of which are center or center-left) are as healthy and heretical as ever

I don't see it, not in the numbers at least. The biggest and only truly growing heretical sect that I can think of is the Mormons, but I did not mentioned them because they are technically not Christians.

Pentecostals are tribal outside of those that are attracted to it they do not grow, Evangelicals such as Megachurches die as soon as the pastor either dies or retires unless he can pass it on to his kids and even then they do not have influence outside their local areas or TV markets.
Why did you not captalize Protestant?

Unum Sint Wrote:Presbyterian in mainline Europe is even more pathetic ... the annoying Seventh day adventists and other tiny groups have sprang up through central America but do we really think that they will have any lasting power in ... Presbyterians once again a joke except

Are those descriptions constructive?

Quote:those overwhelmingly Catholic countries?

What overwhelmingly Catholic countries might you be referring to? Are these countries on Planet Earth?  :)



Time will tell what will become of Protestantism. The movement was on the ropes about one hundred years ago, so much so that Catholics were writing it off then too. It adapted and has survived into today. God only knows what's in store for Protestantism.
The original protestantism (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anglicanism) seems to have run its course, but speaking in voices pentecostal evangelicals are thriving. That is the kind of protestantism that has become popular with the 10% of the population of Latin America, religions of the XIX and XX century, not of the XVI

Making a bad analogy, by the X century arab expansion had run its course, it looked like the Byzantines would eventually reconquer at least Syria if not even more, and then came the Turks.

The pentecostal evangelicals are like the great second wave of protestants.
Years ago, when I was an evangelical I heard a Catholic teacher on television make the statement that Protestantism, by it's very nature, leads to theological liberalism. At the time I thought the statement offensive, but now on this side of the Tiber I can see his point.
Protestantism, does indeed lead logically to theologial liberalism and relativity.
I base this conclusion on the shaky concept of 'scripture alone'. Without anything to anchor to, they drift.
This can be seen very clearly by just observing the path various denominations have taken from thier roots. Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran. The mainline roots of those denominations have all gone liberal. There are sub-groups that have hung on to thier roots, which must be commended. But those sub-groups become smaller and smaller as the decades roll on.
Liberalism-- that belief that doctrine is divisive and unnecessary, that all religions are as good as one another, that ultimately truth is relative and all Scripture a matter of opinion, that IN A PHILOSOPHICALLY CONSISTENT MIND leads to Atheism.
So, has Protestantism 'run its course'? I would simply say look at the previously "protestant' countries of Europe.
It's hard to say. Frankly, Catholicism is "dying" in many of these countries as well. Yes, there are converts to Catholicism from among the truly educated Protestants, but I think there will always be people who want what they think Jesus offers without the structure and obedience due the Church. I agree though, that Protestantism, by its very nature, lends itself to relativism. It's the only thing that can possibly be consistent with the idea of private interpretation of scripture.
In my area (projecting from the number of new church buildings) the fastest growing areas are

- Estern Orthodox churches

- various Jewish synagouges

- non denominational christian churches, mostly megachurches

Using the same logic as the first speaker of this topic we could say that the Catholic Church is dead and inefficient.

It is true that the media is own by the secularism, but they have problems too.

As for the megachurches some are individual pastor establihed, some are corporate entities. These later change the pastor often w/o break in the attendance.

From Catholic point of view the real problem is the new in the name Catholic liberal megachurches, with high attendance and dubious  doctrine rejecting the self denial, discipline and trust in the Magisterium, what is the essence of the Catholic life. 
Protestanism serves SATAN's purpose by making it appear that there are more than one set of faith and morals given to the CATHOLIC CHURCH by JESUS, so it will always be with us in one form or another being used by Satan's willing and duped disciples here on earth to undermine the Dogmatic teachings of the One True Church Jesus established. All Vatican 2 did was make it "appear" that Protestanism has some validity which it doesnt since it is a man-made rebellion against the authority GOD has established on earth. Follow Protestanism to your own peril!!!
The Orthodox Churches are growing in Guatemala [they recently baptised and received 500,000 into their Church; presumably ex-Catholics and a few ex-Prots] and particularly in the North America [i.e. The United States, Mexico, and Canada; even one parish in Habana, Cuba].
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