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Joshua, I appreciate your posts on this topic. I was under the impression that this College supported the TLM. Do you happen to know of a College that supports & has the TLM several times a week? I was hoping for a daily TLM. Thanks.



^^^^^Joshua, the above question is for you. I messed up my post, quote....Thanks.
DeoGratias72 Wrote:Joshua, the above question is for you. I messed up my post, quote....Thanks.

Hi, DeoGratias. Sorry I missed your question. Christendom College really is a paradoxical place. Amongst the vast majority of the students and many of the professors you will find a tremendous amount of traditional Catholic camaraderie and support for the TLM. However, the Chaplaincy and leadership within the institution itself are hell-bent on keeping the expression of the traditional sacraments on as discrete and subordinate a position as humanly possible. Being someone who isn't exactly subtle with my convictions, the raw aggression I encountered in response from the Chaplaincy, in particular, was absolutely staggering.

The only college I know of that revolves around the TLM exclusively is Fisher-More College in Fort Worth, TX. I am entirely unable to speak on their academic or intellectual caliber, but their devotion to the traditional sacraments is an integral component to the college's identity. Another option is Thomas Aquinas College in Santa Paula, California which offers the TLM every day including Sundays. Their academic method revolves around the discourse-based "Socratic Method" that I, personally, do not particularly care for, but many seem to thrive in such an environment. Another option is Thomas More College in Merrimack, New Hampshire. While they do not have a daily TLM, they do not appear to have the same ideological baggage that Christendom has and will actually shuttle their students to an off-campus TLM on Sundays. They also possess a wonderful liturgically-oriented emphasis on reinvigorating the world of sacred art/music primarily through medieval-style guilds in iconography, woodworking, choral music, etc. The last option I can think of is Wyoming Catholic College in Lander, Wyoming. These folks are rather unique in that in addition to academics, they encourage a great amount of outdoor activities including hunting, hiking, camping, etc. all as part of their curriculum. They have the TLM three times a week (including Sundays) and even a once-monthly Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

I hope these help!  :)

(12-18-2013, 01:49 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:In my original comment I made a distinction between Latin Mass and TLM. I think that's enough as I am not aware of enforceable language protocols in this area. The college currently offers a TLM at 7:30 AM on Tuesdays. I don't think that is "inconvenient" or "dimunitive". The College's web page also notes in bold type that the TLM is available at St. John's in Front Royal at 12:30 pm every Sunday. (4 miles away). Were the school deliberately contemptuous of the TLM I think they would not schedule it at all, and that contempt would be expressly stated on its site or elsewhere. I think one can be traditional without turning it into an ideology. I don't think the SSPX or anyone other group has exclusive rights to the term.

C.

Who are you arguing against, Cetil? Are you trying to convince me that what I saw, heard and personally endured was a hallucination?  ??? I'm not going to continue debating what was expressly told to me by the powers-that-be regarding the TLM and traditionalists as a whole. If you choose to believe a fanciful image of Christendom College as being a welcoming haven of traditional Catholicism, knock yourself out, pal. You're deluding yourself if you think scheduling a TLM at dawn at the beginning of the week in a college environment is a gesture of support and solidarity to the traditional liturgy. The Chaplain explicitly informed me that this inconvenient time-slot was purposefully chosen to discourage any significant attendance. "Keeping the Extraordinary extraordinary." as he so delicately put it. If you choose not to believe that, then there's nothing I can do to help you. Using your logic, the Montgomery Bus Boycott was entirely irrational since, after all, they still had access to the back of the bus and the ability to stand in the aisle, right? The single, token TLM on campus is nothing more than a superficial way of currying favor with donors and patrons of the College and being able to claim that they are of "the same mind" as Rome. Now with Francis at the helm, and his gradual revolt against his predecessor's efforts, we'll see how long this TLM remains on campus.

"One can be traditional without turning it into an ideology"? That sentence is utterly meaningless. An ideology is nothing more than a coherent, organized and articulated set of beliefs. Catholicism is an ideology and hostility toward the TLM is symptomatic of a profoundly conflicting ideology.

... and again you mention the SSPX as if they had even the slightest shred of relevance to anything we're speaking of. I realize now why I severely curbed my posting on this forum ...

I said no more than what is in my post. I did not mean to upset you and I am sorry for your experience. I don't deny there is hostility there to SSPX, but I don't consider them the exclusive domain of "Tradition". Tradition does not exist apart from the Magisterium which is Living, Authoritative, and Permanent. 
An ideology can be entirely secular, and our Catholic faith is something much more than that. It is and must be a path to transformation in Christ, not only for ourselves but others too. Eric Voegelin once wrote: "Ideology is existence in rebellion against God and man. . .the violation of the First and Tenth Commandments, if we want to use the language of Israelite order. . the nosos, the disease of the spirit, if we want to use the language of Aeschylus and Plato.” Napoleon put it this way: "All the misfortunes,that our beautiful France has been experiencing have to be ascribed to ‘ideology,’ to that cloudy metaphysics which goes ingeniously seeking first causes and would ground legislation of the peoples upon them instead of adapting laws to what we know of the human heart and the lessons of history. Such errors could only lead to a regime of men of blood and have in fact done so.” Alas, Napoleon himself caused much blood to be shed.

C.
Cetil Wrote:I don't deny there is hostility there to SSPX, but I don't consider them the exclusive domain of "Tradition". Tradition does not exist apart from the Magisterium which is Living, Authoritative, and Permanent. 

Wow. Just wow. How many times must I tell you that nothing of what I have written pertains to the SSPX in ANY WAY? Why do you insist on mentioning them?

By this comment, I am certain you aren't even reading my posts. No one can possibly be this obtuse.
(12-18-2013, 10:10 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:I don't deny there is hostility there to SSPX, but I don't consider them the exclusive domain of "Tradition". Tradition does not exist apart from the Magisterium which is Living, Authoritative, and Permanent. 

Wow. Just wow. How many times must I tell you that nothing of what I have written pertains to the SSPX in ANY WAY? Why do you insist on mentioning them?

By this comment, I am certain you aren't even reading my posts. No one can possibly be this obtuse.

You leave me the impression that you are an SSPX supporter as I gather you think it liturgically superior to the Novus Ordo. And by your insistence on very precise terminology in discussing Latin Masses.I don't think you read my posts either, please skip this one.
(12-18-2013, 11:49 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-18-2013, 10:10 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:I don't deny there is hostility there to SSPX, but I don't consider them the exclusive domain of "Tradition". Tradition does not exist apart from the Magisterium which is Living, Authoritative, and Permanent. 

Wow. Just wow. How many times must I tell you that nothing of what I have written pertains to the SSPX in ANY WAY? Why do you insist on mentioning them?

By this comment, I am certain you aren't even reading my posts. No one can possibly be this obtuse.

You leave me the impression that you are an SSPX supporter as I gather you think it liturgically superior to the Novus Ordo. And by your insistence on very precise terminology in discussing Latin Masses.I don't think you read my posts either, please skip this one.

As anyone who has spent time in broad traditional Catholic intellectual circles will tell you, none of what you wrote above are beliefs exclusive to the SSPX in any way  ... and none of that has the slightest bit of relevance to any portion of what I've written on Christendom College.  I'll repeat my primary point for the umpteenth time: Christendom College harbors a very real and explicit hostility toward the TLM and all traditionalists of [i]any stripe[/i]. It has absolutely nothing to do with the SSPX in the slightest.
Some belated comments here ...

I am grateful to you both Joshua and Cetil for all these things, even if I am sorry the discussion has become tension-filled.

I hardly know what to say, but note these words


(12-18-2013, 02:50 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ][quote='DeoGratias72']Joshua, the above question is for you. I messed up my post, quote....Thanks.
Christendom College really is a paradoxical place. Amongst the vast majority of the students and many of the professors you will find a tremendous amount of traditional Catholic camaraderie and support for the TLM. However, the Chaplaincy and leadership within the institution itself are hell-bent on keeping the expression of the traditional sacraments on as discrete and subordinate a position as humanly possible. Being someone who isn't exactly subtle with my convictions, the raw aggression I encountered in response from the Chaplaincy, in particular, was absolutely staggering.

And wonder if you are each seeing different sides of the same coin. Cetil, what is there and Joshua what is not there, even though I hear you Joshua that there is paradoxically among some people at least "a tremendous amount of traditional Catholic camaraderie and support for the TLM."

I am also interested in the situation vis a vis the greater community of Front Royal and the diocese. Earlier posts in this thread described the diocese as very, very different from other dioceses with TLMs springing up everywhere.

Find myself wondering if there might be one faction that is quite threatened by this development, which helps to accounts for your experience Joshua ...?

I understand also that the town of Front Royal recently constructed a much larger Catholic Church to replace the old one - due to demand! A remarkable thing in the 21st century ... and that unlike most modern churches, this new church is quite traditional in appearance. Is this true?

While your comments Joshua help me to be a bit more sober about the place, I remain fascinated by its roots - and wonder if in the big picture, the current chaplaincy is a passing thing? But what do I know? Nada ...

Just grateful for further clarifications.

Final belated comment to Cetil. As I understand it, Triumph folded in 1976 and CC opened in 1979. I think you are saying I should not imagine too much continuity between Triumph in Front Royal from 1970 t0 1976 and CC from 1979 onwards.

You should know. You were there. I was not.

Still I cannot help but wonder if there is some kind of hidden, Providential continuity? I wonder why Triumph chose that town to relocate to in 1970, what became of the people there involved in things like Metternich Farm after Triumph folded ...

I also wonder what Warren Carroll himself said as to TLM and Summorum Pontificum. Or Anne Carroll thinks ... it is hard to imagine them being vehemently Novus Ordo ...

Cetil said it awhile ago when he mentioned that Dr. Carroll came into the Church late and had no real attachment to the TLM when the Novus Ordo was introduced.  Couple that with the full loyalty given to the pope by the Catholics with whom he associated, it's not surprising that Christendom College as an institution would continue to embody that ethos.  Yes, it is traditional in the sense that it does not see Vatican II as a break from the past. The problem was and remains one of proper interpretation and implementation.

Despite what the administration and chaplaincy want. as Joshua illustrates, it's clear that Christendom has existed long enough for there to accrete a Traditional community that is fine with Christendom in most other ways, but wants the TLM front and center.

The diocese of Arlington's traditional streak keeps coming up and I am wondering if there is some way we can identify just how deep it goes.  Was there any talk of the FSSP settling there for their seminary in North America rather than in the diocese of Lincoln?
(12-24-2013, 12:07 PM)Jacob Wrote: [ -> ]Cetil said it awhile ago when he mentioned that Dr. Carroll came into the Church late and had no real attachment to the TLM when the Novus Ordo was introduced.  Couple that with the full loyalty given to the pope by the Catholics with whom he associated, it's not surprising that Christendom College as an institution would continue to embody that ethos.  Yes, it is traditional in the sense that it does not see Vatican II as a break from the past. The problem was and remains one of proper interpretation and implementation.

Despite what the administration and chaplaincy want. as Joshua illustrates, it's clear that Christendom has existed long enough for there to accrete a Traditional community that is fine with Christendom in most other ways, but wants the TLM front and center.

The diocese of Arlington's traditional streak keeps coming up and I am wondering if there is some way we can identify just how deep it goes.  Was there any talk of the FSSP settling there for their seminary in North America rather than in the diocese of Lincoln?

Bishop Loverde is I think tolerant of the Extraordinary Form at best, he allowed it in the diocese at the same time he allowed altar girls, kind of a strange trade off. But many alumni of Christendom are oriented towards the EF, and ten are now priests in the FSSP and two are in the ICKSP. I doubt Loverde would allow the FSSP into the diocese.
The attitude towards the EF is something of a mixed bag, when Father O'Kielty was there he offered the EF in 2007 and the school was proud to announce that:
http://www.christendom.edu/news/2007/mass.php
In 2012, the college announced on its Facebook page of a new schedule of the EF, and that announcement showed no hostility towards the EF, in fact the school states the possibility of the EF Mass on Sundays as well.
https://www.facebook.com/christendomcoll...d=20629576



C.
(02-17-2014, 06:55 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-24-2013, 12:07 PM)Jacob Wrote: [ -> ]The diocese of Arlington's traditional streak keeps coming up and I am wondering if there is some way we can identify just how deep it goes.  Was there any talk of the FSSP settling there for their seminary in North America rather than in the diocese of Lincoln?

Bishop Loverde is I think tolerant of the Extraordinary Form at best, he allowed it in the diocese at the same time he allowed altar girls, kind of a strange trade off. But many alumni of Christendom are oriented towards the EF, and ten are now priests in the FSSP and two are in the ICKSP. I doubt Loverde would allow the FSSP into the diocese

I am familiar with Bishop Loverde's actions.  My question was about when the FSSP first came to the US to establish a seminary.  Did it consider Arlington under Keating at all or was it invited to Lincoln under Bruskewitz?
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