FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Who is snuffing your neighbour's kittens? (Crypto-Trads at Christendom College?)
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Cetil - thank you for both posts!

Responses to each. First

(11-20-2010, 12:20 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]As to the Arlington diocese it has always been a more traditional place and was kept so by Bishop Thomas Welsh and his successor Bishop Keating. It has always been one of the fastest growing dioceses in the USA and is actually building parishes and schools instead of closing them. It just shows how traditional Catholicism can really flourish if given a chance. Between 1995 and 2005 the Catholic population of the diocese grew 42%. Parishes in Arlington typically have two and sometimes three priests in residence. No vocations crisis here.
"Liberal" policies in other dioceses is why they are crumbling and lack for vocations. God is not stupid, He will not call men into seminaries where they will lose their faith.

C.

Wow! You speak to something here that seem so VITAL.

We have continuous liberal Catholics who actually believe their updating will save the Church. While the Church continuously declines. We are told that modern people will not respond to Tradition, blah, blah etc etc.

Yet it would seem here in this diocese that there might be something akin to "laboratory evidence" that the liberals are wrong.

I am on the other side of the ocean from this diocese - and yet what has been said in this thread INSPIRES me

Pedantic I may be, but I am going to repeat you.



(11-20-2010, 12:20 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]one of the fastest growing dioceses in the USA and is actually building parishes and schools instead of closing them. It just shows how traditional Catholicism can really flourish if given a chance. Between 1995 and 2005 the Catholic population of the diocese grew 42%. Parishes in Arlington typically have two and sometimes three priests in residence. No vocations crisis here.
.

This strikes me as very important. This thread inspires and excites me. What do others think?

(11-20-2010, 12:09 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]I would argue that the US Constitution is largely based on ideas of the "Enlightenment" and thus flawed. John Adams once said: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other". That's definitely something to keep in mind.
Warren Carroll is a traditional Catholic, a convert who worked and sweated unbelievably to found Christendom College and keep it going despite many obstacles. He has written several very good books such as "Red Banners, White Mantle" (about the Russian revolution and Fatima) and more besides on traditional Catholic history. Dr. Carroll is very influenced by Spanish Catholicism and is kind of a monarchist but realizes its limits and that it would not work everywhere. He is definitely a supporter of the Carlists but only because he considered them the most authentic Catholics of the various contenders for the Spanish throne. Anne Carroll founded Seton High School in Manassas Virginia and is a fine Catholic too. She is also the founder of Seton Home Study. Frederick Wilhelmsen was a philosophy professor at the University of Dallas and a Thomist. L. Brent Bozell is a conservative political commentator, I'm not sure if he's still around but is also a trad. Catholic. Dr. Carroll accepts the authority of the Catholic church as does the college itself. Are they theocratics? I think most trad Catholics would prefer to live in a state that confessed the Catholic faith. But I don't think anyone at Christendom would try to impose such a thing by force.

C.

Thank you for this too. I am grateful indeed for the elucidation of these people. I must and will read them.

In addition to the Walter and Anne Carroll, Brent Bozell and Wilhelmsen, I wonder if you or anyone else has perspectives on Christendom President Timothy T. O Donnell?

Not many people know it I suspect, but he has a great - both scholarly and pious, lovely - book all about the Sacred Heart. Heart of the Redeemer (reviewed at my site in depth if anyone is interested)

Now in France, the cult of the Sacred Heart has real links to all you invoke here, i.e. when you say

(11-20-2010, 12:09 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]. Are they theocratics? I think most trad Catholics would prefer to live in a state that confessed the Catholic faith. But I don't think anyone at Christendom would try to impose such a thing by force.

C.

I agree with you that force is the key issue here.

I think what many traditionalists long for an Integral Catholic Culture - (instead of having integral secular culture imposed on them!)

Integral Catholic Culture has been historically imposed by force in some places.

In others like Ireland this was not the case, I would say

And it seems like the people at Christendom are trying to build something like that Integral Catholic Culture.

And graces flow ...



I wish some of that positive influence in the Arlington Diocese would make its way to the more liberal Richmond Diocese.
(11-20-2010, 08:29 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]Cetil - thank you for both posts!

Responses to each. First

(11-20-2010, 12:20 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]As to the Arlington diocese it has always been a more traditional place and was kept so by Bishop Thomas Welsh and his successor Bishop Keating. It has always been one of the fastest growing dioceses in the USA and is actually building parishes and schools instead of closing them. It just shows how traditional Catholicism can really flourish if given a chance. Between 1995 and 2005 the Catholic population of the diocese grew 42%. Parishes in Arlington typically have two and sometimes three priests in residence. No vocations crisis here.
"Liberal" policies in other dioceses is why they are crumbling and lack for vocations. God is not stupid, He will not call men into seminaries where they will lose their faith.

C.

Wow! You speak to something here that seem so VITAL.

We have continuous liberal Catholics who actually believe their updating will save the Church. While the Church continuously declines. We are told that modern people will not respond to Tradition, blah, blah etc etc.

Yet it would seem here in this diocese that there might be something akin to "laboratory evidence" that the liberals are wrong.

I am on the other side of the ocean from this diocese - and yet what has been said in this thread INSPIRES me

Pedantic I may be, but I am going to repeat you.



(11-20-2010, 12:20 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]one of the fastest growing dioceses in the USA and is actually building parishes and schools instead of closing them. It just shows how traditional Catholicism can really flourish if given a chance. Between 1995 and 2005 the Catholic population of the diocese grew 42%. Parishes in Arlington typically have two and sometimes three priests in residence. No vocations crisis here.
.

This strikes me as very important. This thread inspires and excites me. What do others think?

Whenever I am confronted with liberal Catholics who say that people today will not respond to tradition, etc. I always point their attention to the experience of the Episcopal church. The Episcopalians have done more than anyone else to sell out to modernity by accepting contraception, women priests, homosexuality, etc. but what is the result? Are the moderns racing to join the Episcopal church? To the contrary, its numbers continue to decline. The moderns see that there is no point in joining a church which is already joining them; Malachi Martin's assessment of liberal Catholics almost forty years ago is quite apt:
"...The pathos lies rather in the fact that men of religious faith thus surrender the very birthright of the faith: its transforming power.
They and their faith no longer transform anything. They are transformed by this world, conformed to its conditions, its ideals, afflicted with the universal problems, hemmed in by the same insufficiency of solutions and of light for solutions, that afflict the rest of men. They no longer are unique because of a unique spirit, and no longer special because of a specially made solution of which they are the bearers. Man's weak solutions and troubled spirit are uniquely theirs. They share in the democratization, the facile activism, the intellectual structuralism, and the false sense of mystery characteristic of the age." p. 374 of "Three Popes and the Cardinal", Malachi Martin, 1972

Those outside the Church really need to know that the "transforming power" comes from Christ and only those who are faithful to Christ will be seen as attractive in the final analysis.

C.
(11-21-2010, 12:23 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-20-2010, 08:29 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]Cetil - thank you for both posts!

Responses to each. First

(11-20-2010, 12:20 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]As to the Arlington diocese it has always been a more traditional place and was kept so by Bishop Thomas Welsh and his successor Bishop Keating. It has always been one of the fastest growing dioceses in the USA and is actually building parishes and schools instead of closing them. It just shows how traditional Catholicism can really flourish if given a chance. Between 1995 and 2005 the Catholic population of the diocese grew 42%. Parishes in Arlington typically have two and sometimes three priests in residence. No vocations crisis here.
"Liberal" policies in other dioceses is why they are crumbling and lack for vocations. God is not stupid, He will not call men into seminaries where they will lose their faith.

C.

Wow! You speak to something here that seem so VITAL.

We have continuous liberal Catholics who actually believe their updating will save the Church. While the Church continuously declines. We are told that modern people will not respond to Tradition, blah, blah etc etc.

Yet it would seem here in this diocese that there might be something akin to "laboratory evidence" that the liberals are wrong.

I am on the other side of the ocean from this diocese - and yet what has been said in this thread INSPIRES me

Pedantic I may be, but I am going to repeat you.



(11-20-2010, 12:20 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]one of the fastest growing dioceses in the USA and is actually building parishes and schools instead of closing them. It just shows how traditional Catholicism can really flourish if given a chance. Between 1995 and 2005 the Catholic population of the diocese grew 42%. Parishes in Arlington typically have two and sometimes three priests in residence. No vocations crisis here.
.

This strikes me as very important. This thread inspires and excites me. What do others think?

Whenever I am confronted with liberal Catholics who say that people today will not respond to tradition, etc. I always point their attention to the experience of the Episcopal church. The Episcopalians have done more than anyone else to sell out to modernity by accepting contraception, women priests, homosexuality, etc. but what is the result? Are the moderns racing to join the Episcopal church? To the contrary, its numbers continue to decline. The moderns see that there is no point in joining a church which is already joining them; Malachi Martin's assessment of liberal Catholics almost forty years ago is quite apt:
"...The pathos lies rather in the fact that men of religious faith thus surrender the very birthright of the faith: its transforming power.
They and their faith no longer transform anything. They are transformed by this world, conformed to its conditions, its ideals, afflicted with the universal problems, hemmed in by the same insufficiency of solutions and of light for solutions, that afflict the rest of men. They no longer are unique because of a unique spirit, and no longer special because of a specially made solution of which they are the bearers. Man's weak solutions and troubled spirit are uniquely theirs. They share in the democratization, the facile activism, the intellectual structuralism, and the false sense of mystery characteristic of the age." p. 374 of "Three Popes and the Cardinal", Malachi Martin, 1972

Those outside the Church really need to know that the "transforming power" comes from Christ and only those who are faithful to Christ will be seen as attractive in the final analysis.

C.

Yes indeed - I quite agree Citl.

Unfortunately as convincing as this argument is to us, it's not sufficient for others.

But if a study were done of the Arlington diocese - with the statistics you cited of 42 per cent Catholic increase, vocations etc

Linked to rising TLM's that others have noted etc ...

Well, being pessimistic, one might say people still wouldn't listen.

But I really wonder if we really have here in Arlington, a kind of LIVING LABORATORY for the changes most Trads want to see ...

And a study of this diocese would help ...

This is why I have found this thread so exciting. And important.

I am sorry to see the thread dying here ...

I regret I haven't been able to give much attention to it in the last days ....

I really find so much hope and inspiration in what you others and paradoxically what the original Mr Kittens have said ...

Thank you all

PS: I also liked your Adams quote a lot ... it has been going through my mind these last days ...

PPS I wonder about that 42 per cent increase ... could it be due to things like hispanic or other forms of  immigration?
Cetil Wrote:I would argue that the US Constitution is largely based on ideas of the "Enlightenment" and thus flawed. John Adams once said: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other". That's definitely something to keep in mind.
Warren Carroll is a traditional Catholic, a convert who worked and sweated unbelievably to found Christendom College and keep it going despite many obstacles. He has written several very good books such as "Red Banners, White Mantle" (about the Russian revolution and Fatima) and more besides on traditional Catholic history. Dr. Carroll is very influenced by Spanish Catholicism and is kind of a monarchist but realizes its limits and that it would not work everywhere. He is definitely a supporter of the Carlists but only because he considered them the most authentic Catholics of the various contenders for the Spanish throne. Anne Carroll founded Seton High School in Manassas Virginia and is a fine Catholic too. She is also the founder of Seton Home Study. Frederick Wilhelmsen was a philosophy professor at the University of Dallas and a Thomist. L. Brent Bozell is a conservative political commentator, I'm not sure if he's still around but is also a trad. Catholic. Dr. Carroll accepts the authority of the Catholic church as does the college itself. Are they theocratics? I think most trad Catholics would prefer to live in a state that confessed the Catholic faith. But I don't think anyone at Christendom would try to impose such a thing by force.

C.

Influenced by Spanish Catholicism, you say? We'd get along then!  :)

However, does Dr. Carroll consider himself a traditional Catholic? I had heard somewhere through the grapevine that he's not the TLM's biggest fan. Is there any truth to that? I'm a little disappointed that Christendom does not have a TLM on Sunday ... which would force someone like me to fulfill his Sunday Obligation off campus.
(11-23-2010, 05:34 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]Influenced by Spanish Catholicism, you say? We'd get along then!  :)

However, does Dr. Carroll consider himself a traditional Catholic? I had heard somewhere through the grapevine that he's not the TLM's biggest fan. Is there any truth to that? I'm a little disappointed that Christendom does not have a TLM on Sunday ... which would force someone like me to fulfill his Sunday Obligation off campus.

This is an extremely interesting question and I hope someone can shed light.

The reason I used the silly term "Crypto-Trads" in the first place is that at first blush a traditionalist orientation is not obvious.

But after some digging I note some interesting things. Masses at Christendom are 3 TLM's a week, 3 NO's and a Sunday NO in Latin Ad Orientem if I understand correctly. This reads like a straight down the middle attempt to reconcile both the NO and the TLM.

I wonder if other Catholic colleges in the US bother with TLM at all.? I have also managed to find writing now by Warren and Anne Carroll and it certainly displays real sympathy with many traditional positions. Moving writing ...

I find myself wondering if there is a motive here to introduce TLM and Catholic Tradition in ways that if are not "crypto" are at least intended to be friendly and less confrontational than certainTrad groupings?

All very, very interesting!
With respect to the TLM and Dr. Carroll it must be said that he is a convert to the Faith since 1967. As a result he has no memory or connection with the Latin liturgy and simply prefers English. However, the college itself has had the TLM for awhile now, but not on Sundays. The regular Sunday liturgy is a Novus Ordo Latin mass. Nonetheless, the TLM is offered three times a week. The local parish though has the TLM on Sundays. The college has always aimed at a proper interpretation of Vatican II on the liturgy, i.e., a mix of Latin the vernacular.
Most trads would be happy with Warren Carroll's numerous books especially his bio. of Queen Isabella. Before he founded the college he directed a summer program in Spain that was built around Catholic tradition.
As to the growth rate of the diocese, even going back historically to the eighties the place has always been the fastest growing diocese in the USA. Without a doubt the diocese is a magnet for Catholics seeking a refuge of orthodoxy. The growth may  partly be due to immigration but one cannot deny the vocations growth in Arlington is fueled by the orthodoxy of the diocese. To me it has always been a simple equation, bad seminaries mean no vocations. Good seminaries in the USA have always done well. Alas, there are so few of them.

C.
I can vouch for the fact that the Front Royal area is a magnet for those seeking orthodoxy. I am planning on moving there soon and I have spoken with two other couples who are seriously considering a move. The first time I attended Mass at St. John the Baptist I said "thank-you, Lord!"  :pray2:
Some belated additions to this thread.

First I have not been here for awhile and did not realise there had been more responses in my absence.

Just want to say re:

(11-27-2010, 08:24 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]As to the growth rate of the diocese, even going back historically to the eighties the place has always been the fastest growing diocese in the USA. Without a doubt the diocese is a magnet for Catholics seeking a refuge of orthodoxy. The growth may  partly be due to immigration but one cannot deny the vocations growth in Arlington is fueled by the orthodoxy of the diocese. To me it has always been a simple equation, bad seminaries mean no vocations. Good seminaries in the USA have always done well. Alas, there are so few of them.

C.

and re:


(11-28-2010, 06:19 PM)villamaria Wrote: [ -> ]I can vouch for the fact that the Front Royal area is a magnet for those seeking orthodoxy. I am planning on moving there soon and I have spoken with two other couples who are seriously considering a move. The first time I attended Mass at St. John the Baptist I said "thank-you, Lord!"  :pray2:


Thank you to you both for this - I continue to remain really fascinated by this place. Both for what it means locally to people there or nearby and what it can tell us globally ... about how the Church/Tradition might thrive once more.

I have something else to add to this thread, but first I must go and google it ...
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11