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Jacob, yes I know about those statistics for the Arlington diocese. Extraordinary ...



(11-26-2013, 06:04 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Roger,
I don't think Bozell ever moved Triumph to Front Royal before the magazine folded in 1976. Christendom itself started out in a very modest building in Triangle Virginia in 1977, about 40 miles south of Washington. They moved to Front Royal in 1979 when the AFL-CIO sold them a property which had been used to train Latin American labor leaders. It is said that George Meany was favorable to the college being Catholic himself and gave the college a good price for the property.

Normally Cetil, I would want to defer to your obviously vastly superior knowledge here. But I double-checked. Gary Potter in his memoir of Triumph (in aforementioned Distributist anthology Beyond Capitalism and Socialism) says that Triumph moved from Washington DC to Front Royal and that some of the staffers there set up a little farm called Metternich farm. The Best of Triumph also reports this move in 1970. So I wonder if there is more continuity here than may first meet the eye ...



(11-26-2013, 06:04 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]I always thought the Arlington diocese was remarkable as they never suffered through a shortage of priests which I think proves that if orthodox teachings are upheld God will bless us with vocations. If not, well the results are obvious in other dioceses. Arlington was blessed to have Bishop Welsh at the time and he was friendly to the college. Dr. Carroll thought the school should never grow beyond 500 students or it would lose some of the community spirit he wanted it to have. They are currently very close to that target of 500. I hope the Catholic community there will continue to grow and flourish in the years ahead. The original campus bears little resemblance to what was there in 1979. They now have a beautiful chapel, dining hall, new gymnasium and new library as well as new dormitories. Dr. Carroll was a man of deep faith and worked tirelessly to preserve the college with little regard for himself or his role. He stepped aside as president when he realized it was time for a change. I have little doubt that his self sacrifice sustained the place when others might easily have abandoned what often seemed a daunting and difficult task. The school suffered numerous financial reverses and other disappointments and there were at times some very bitter and divisive issues to contend with. But it survived.  Watching that I realized this must be God's will as one might easily have concluded more than once that it was going to collapse. The Arlington diocese itself was carved out of the Richmond diocese in 1974 as it is said Rome was none too pleased with what Bishop Walter Sullivan was doing with  Richmond, at that time one of the most liberal bishops around. Whatever the case the results were I think very happy for the Church.
Front Royal was a very sleepy country town when Christendom arrived there but the local folk were always so friendly and kind to myself and the rest of us despite most of them being Baptist or other Protestants one could not help but be charmed with the place. Much has changed now as Front Royal became one of Washingon's extended suburbs with lots of commuters that moved in over the years. New malls and subdivisions have sprung up just about everywhere out there it seems. I will always miss the old town folk of Front Royal who were so open and friendly in those old days. My car broke down a number of times there and always helpful people would stop in minutes to offer assistance. My breakdowns in metro Washington never got that kind of attention! The lifestyle then was not rushed, and Skyline Drive was easy to get to with it's panoramic vistas of the Shenandoah Valley. It seemed almost every night there was a beautiful red sky at sunset. For us it was just fun and relaxing to go up Skyline Drive and watch that spectacular sunset, especially in the summer months.

C.

All of this is very interesting, lovely and sad - all at the same time. I have never been closer to Virginia than a swift bus ride through Pennsylvania - and have no idea about such sunsets or the legendary Southern hospitality of old ... Very sad at what is being lost. Your point about Orthodoxy is well-taken and all your recollections here most appreciated.

Finally, there's another thread going here about the differences between Evangelical college communities and Catholic colleges.

I'm going to paste something in from that thread ....

(11-28-2013, 01:24 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the article is untrue -- i.e., I believe that evangelicals are much more apt to refrain from sexual sins than the typical Catholic is. I think a number of things are at the root of this:

1)  Evangelicals take Christ seriously and don't at all underestimate the power of Christ to actually WORK in people's lives. They don't approach the Faith through the head RATHER THAN through the heart. Ideally, both the heart and head should be satisfied, and the true Faith, practiced well and taught well would take care of things just fine. The NO lovey-dovey stuff leaves out the head; the Toxic Trad approach leaves out the heart. The TRUE trad way deals with BOTH.

2)  Catholics are not only not catechized properly, they're too often anti-catechized.

3)  Evangelicals have groups for their kids to be involved with, which creates a peer group that isn't pressuring them into sin and which allows them to have normal social lives.  In the Catholic world, it's Mass on Sundays -- and that's it, typically. What groups there are tend to be bogus, condescending nonsense that centers around "youth Masses" that don't inspire a sense of the Sacred at all.

4)  Catholics, as a group, don't read Scripture often enough, well enough, and in a way that inspires them to re-realize the Truths of the Church.


I envision a Catholic culture in which  traditional Catholicism is preserved and handed down 100% intact, in which the traditional Sacramental rites are available everywhere, in which neither a hyper-emphasis on the heart OR the head prevails, in which there are things at the parish and diocese levels for people -- including KIDS, esp. TEENS -- to DO and find each other (same with stay-at-home Moms who want to network and find friends), in which Bible Studies done the Catholic way are everywhere, in which service to others -- inc. non-Catholics -- is stressed (and acts as a means to evangelize), in which sex is spoken of with joy, without shame, and maybe even with some humor --  AND as something for married folks, and in which no Catholic ever has to feel alone in the world.

Ideally, there'd be a rebirth of parish-based neighborhoods, but that's likely a long way off...


 
(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Best bet Vox, Catholics take note of those whacky Libertarians. Traditional civilly-reactionary Catholics should make a solemn effort to migrate en-masse to a part in America or the globe where we can carry out a purely Catholic neo-Medieval society. 



Fascinating. I think this is pretty much what the people at Christendom College are aiming at. And I suspect achieving considerably. I suspect CC is far more like an Evangelical college/community than other Catholic colleges. In fact, I think I shall cross post this over to the Christendom College thread and see what anyone says ...

Is this true I wonder?

Who is snuffing your neighbour's kittens?.

Could it be those coyotes that have been seen wandering around the area?
(11-28-2013, 01:30 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]Jacob, yes I know about those statistics for the Arlington diocese. Extraordinary ...



(11-26-2013, 06:04 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Roger,
I don't think Bozell ever moved Triumph to Front Royal before the magazine folded in 1976. Christendom itself started out in a very modest building in Triangle Virginia in 1977, about 40 miles south of Washington. They moved to Front Royal in 1979 when the AFL-CIO sold them a property which had been used to train Latin American labor leaders. It is said that George Meany was favorable to the college being Catholic himself and gave the college a good price for the property.

Normally Cetil, I would want to defer to your obviously vastly superior knowledge here. But I double-checked. Gary Potter in his memoir of Triumph (in aforementioned Distributist anthology Beyond Capitalism and Socialism) says that Triumph moved from Washington DC to Front Royal and that some of the staffers there set up a little farm called Metternich farm. The Best of Triumph also reports this move in 1970. So I wonder if there is more continuity here than may first meet the eye ...



(11-26-2013, 06:04 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]I always thought the Arlington diocese was remarkable as they never suffered through a shortage of priests which I think proves that if orthodox teachings are upheld God will bless us with vocations. If not, well the results are obvious in other dioceses. Arlington was blessed to have Bishop Welsh at the time and he was friendly to the college. Dr. Carroll thought the school should never grow beyond 500 students or it would lose some of the community spirit he wanted it to have. They are currently very close to that target of 500. I hope the Catholic community there will continue to grow and flourish in the years ahead. The original campus bears little resemblance to what was there in 1979. They now have a beautiful chapel, dining hall, new gymnasium and new library as well as new dormitories. Dr. Carroll was a man of deep faith and worked tirelessly to preserve the college with little regard for himself or his role. He stepped aside as president when he realized it was time for a change. I have little doubt that his self sacrifice sustained the place when others might easily have abandoned what often seemed a daunting and difficult task. The school suffered numerous financial reverses and other disappointments and there were at times some very bitter and divisive issues to contend with. But it survived.  Watching that I realized this must be God's will as one might easily have concluded more than once that it was going to collapse. The Arlington diocese itself was carved out of the Richmond diocese in 1974 as it is said Rome was none too pleased with what Bishop Walter Sullivan was doing with  Richmond, at that time one of the most liberal bishops around. Whatever the case the results were I think very happy for the Church.
Front Royal was a very sleepy country town when Christendom arrived there but the local folk were always so friendly and kind to myself and the rest of us despite most of them being Baptist or other Protestants one could not help but be charmed with the place. Much has changed now as Front Royal became one of Washingon's extended suburbs with lots of commuters that moved in over the years. New malls and subdivisions have sprung up just about everywhere out there it seems. I will always miss the old town folk of Front Royal who were so open and friendly in those old days. My car broke down a number of times there and always helpful people would stop in minutes to offer assistance. My breakdowns in metro Washington never got that kind of attention! The lifestyle then was not rushed, and Skyline Drive was easy to get to with it's panoramic vistas of the Shenandoah Valley. It seemed almost every night there was a beautiful red sky at sunset. For us it was just fun and relaxing to go up Skyline Drive and watch that spectacular sunset, especially in the summer months.

C.

All of this is very interesting, lovely and sad - all at the same time. I have never been closer to Virginia than a swift bus ride through Pennsylvania - and have no idea about such sunsets or the legendary Southern hospitality of old ... Very sad at what is being lost. Your point about Orthodoxy is well-taken and all your recollections here most appreciated.

Finally, there's another thread going here about the differences between Evangelical college communities and Catholic colleges.

I'm going to paste something in from that thread ....

(11-28-2013, 01:24 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the article is untrue -- i.e., I believe that evangelicals are much more apt to refrain from sexual sins than the typical Catholic is. I think a number of things are at the root of this:

1)  Evangelicals take Christ seriously and don't at all underestimate the power of Christ to actually WORK in people's lives. They don't approach the Faith through the head RATHER THAN through the heart. Ideally, both the heart and head should be satisfied, and the true Faith, practiced well and taught well would take care of things just fine. The NO lovey-dovey stuff leaves out the head; the Toxic Trad approach leaves out the heart. The TRUE trad way deals with BOTH.

2)  Catholics are not only not catechized properly, they're too often anti-catechized.

3)  Evangelicals have groups for their kids to be involved with, which creates a peer group that isn't pressuring them into sin and which allows them to have normal social lives.  In the Catholic world, it's Mass on Sundays -- and that's it, typically. What groups there are tend to be bogus, condescending nonsense that centers around "youth Masses" that don't inspire a sense of the Sacred at all.

4)  Catholics, as a group, don't read Scripture often enough, well enough, and in a way that inspires them to re-realize the Truths of the Church.


I envision a Catholic culture in which  traditional Catholicism is preserved and handed down 100% intact, in which the traditional Sacramental rites are available everywhere, in which neither a hyper-emphasis on the heart OR the head prevails, in which there are things at the parish and diocese levels for people -- including KIDS, esp. TEENS -- to DO and find each other (same with stay-at-home Moms who want to network and find friends), in which Bible Studies done the Catholic way are everywhere, in which service to others -- inc. non-Catholics -- is stressed (and acts as a means to evangelize), in which sex is spoken of with joy, without shame, and maybe even with some humor --  AND as something for married folks, and in which no Catholic ever has to feel alone in the world.

Ideally, there'd be a rebirth of parish-based neighborhoods, but that's likely a long way off...


 
(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Best bet Vox, Catholics take note of those whacky Libertarians. Traditional civilly-reactionary Catholics should make a solemn effort to migrate en-masse to a part in America or the globe where we can carry out a purely Catholic neo-Medieval society. 



Fascinating. I think this is pretty much what the people at Christendom College are aiming at. And I suspect achieving considerably. I suspect CC is far more like an Evangelical college/community than other Catholic colleges. In fact, I think I shall cross post this over to the Christendom College thread and see what anyone says ...

Is this true I wonder?

I guess Gary Potter would know about Triumph being in Front Royal. I never heard any mention of it though, but since Christendom wasn't in Front Royal until 1979 (long after Triumph folded) that would explain it. Whatever vestiges of Triumph that remained there must have been gone by then. I don't think Christendom is much like an Evangelical community at all. It is very Latin Mass oriented now,(though the TLM is only offered on a weekday), and the campus culture the last I heard is sort of 1940's revivalist in a way, i.e., swing music is very much in vogue, and I think rock music is banned.

C.
Cetil Wrote:I guess Gary Potter would know about Triumph being in Front Royal. I never heard any mention of it though, but since Christendom wasn't in Front Royal until 1979 (long after Triumph folded) that would explain it. Whatever vestiges of Triumph that remained there must have been gone by then. I don't think Christendom is much like an Evangelical community at all. It is very Latin Mass oriented now,(though the TLM is only offered on a weekday), and the campus culture the last I heard is sort of 1940's revivalist in a way, i.e., swing music is very much in vogue, and I think rock music is banned.

C.

Uhm, no ...

While many of Christendom's students (if not a majority) are very keen on having the traditional liturgy, Christendom College itself is nowhere near Latin-Mass oriented. I attended Christendom from 2011-2012 and the Chaplaincy's overt hostility and aggression (particularly in the form of Father Donald Planty) toward the traditional liturgy was palpable and downright disturbing, seething beneath the surface. To quote the words of said Chaplain as directed towards me in private, "I will never allow the extraordinary to ever become ordinary!".

Christendom College is far from being friendly to traditionalists of any stripe.
(12-12-2013, 02:04 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:I guess Gary Potter would know about Triumph being in Front Royal. I never heard any mention of it though, but since Christendom wasn't in Front Royal until 1979 (long after Triumph folded) that would explain it. Whatever vestiges of Triumph that remained there must have been gone by then. I don't think Christendom is much like an Evangelical community at all. It is very Latin Mass oriented now,(though the TLM is only offered on a weekday), and the campus culture the last I heard is sort of 1940's revivalist in a way, i.e., swing music is very much in vogue, and I think rock music is banned.

C.

Uhm, no ...

While many of Christendom's students (if not a majority) are very keen on having the traditional liturgy, Christendom College itself is nowhere near Latin-Mass oriented. I attended Christendom from 2011-2012 and the Chaplaincy's overt hostility and aggression (particularly in the form of Father Donald Planty) toward the traditional liturgy was palpable and downright disturbing, seething beneath the surface. To quote the words of said Chaplain as directed towards me in private, "I will never allow the extraordinary to ever become ordinary!".

Christendom College is far from being friendly to traditionalists of any stripe.

When I said Latin Mass I did not mean the TLM. The figures I know in the admin there are more than interested in the Latin liturgy though. Not so for clergy appointed by the diocese and they hold the cards. I don't think the school is friendly to the SSPX, but it depends on what you mean by traditionalists.

C.
(12-12-2013, 03:10 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-12-2013, 02:04 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:I guess Gary Potter would know about Triumph being in Front Royal. I never heard any mention of it though, but since Christendom wasn't in Front Royal until 1979 (long after Triumph folded) that would explain it. Whatever vestiges of Triumph that remained there must have been gone by then. I don't think Christendom is much like an Evangelical community at all. It is very Latin Mass oriented now,(though the TLM is only offered on a weekday), and the campus culture the last I heard is sort of 1940's revivalist in a way, i.e., swing music is very much in vogue, and I think rock music is banned.

C.

Uhm, no ...

While many of Christendom's students (if not a majority) are very keen on having the traditional liturgy, Christendom College itself is nowhere near Latin-Mass oriented. I attended Christendom from 2011-2012 and the Chaplaincy's overt hostility and aggression (particularly in the form of Father Donald Planty) toward the traditional liturgy was palpable and downright disturbing, seething beneath the surface. To quote the words of said Chaplain as directed towards me in private, "I will never allow the extraordinary to ever become ordinary!".

Christendom College is far from being friendly to traditionalists of any stripe.

When I said Latin Mass I did not mean the TLM. The figures I know in the admin there are more than interested in the Latin liturgy though. Not so for clergy appointed by the diocese and they hold the cards. I don't think the school is friendly to the SSPX, but it depends on what you mean by traditionalists.

C.

The Chaplaincy and higher-ups of the college are overtly hostile to anyone who even remotely upholds the TLM as being a superior expression of liturgical theology or for those who wish to have the TLM celebrated with equal frequency as the NO. The SSPX does not figure into their rationale on any significant level.

To quote President O'Donnell in a meeting I had with him, "We've always considered ourselves a pro-Vatican II college and the Novus Ordo is what we will always use."
(12-17-2013, 12:48 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-12-2013, 03:10 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-12-2013, 02:04 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:I guess Gary Potter would know about Triumph being in Front Royal. I never heard any mention of it though, but since Christendom wasn't in Front Royal until 1979 (long after Triumph folded) that would explain it. Whatever vestiges of Triumph that remained there must have been gone by then. I don't think Christendom is much like an Evangelical community at all. It is very Latin Mass oriented now,(though the TLM is only offered on a weekday), and the campus culture the last I heard is sort of 1940's revivalist in a way, i.e., swing music is very much in vogue, and I think rock music is banned.

C.

Uhm, no ...

While many of Christendom's students (if not a majority) are very keen on having the traditional liturgy, Christendom College itself is nowhere near Latin-Mass oriented. I attended Christendom from 2011-2012 and the Chaplaincy's overt hostility and aggression (particularly in the form of Father Donald Planty) toward the traditional liturgy was palpable and downright disturbing, seething beneath the surface. To quote the words of said Chaplain as directed towards me in private, "I will never allow the extraordinary to ever become ordinary!".

Christendom College is far from being friendly to traditionalists of any stripe.

When I said Latin Mass I did not mean the TLM. The figures I know in the admin there are more than interested in the Latin liturgy though. Not so for clergy appointed by the diocese and they hold the cards. I don't think the school is friendly to the SSPX, but it depends on what you mean by traditionalists.

C.

The Chaplaincy and higher-ups of the college are overtly hostile to anyone who even remotely upholds the TLM as being a superior expression of liturgical theology or for those who wish to have the TLM celebrated with equal frequency as the NO. The SSPX does not figure into their rationale on any significant level.

To quote President O'Donnell in a meeting I had with him, "We've always considered ourselves a pro-Vatican II college and the Novus Ordo is what we will always use."

Again I spoke of the Latin Mass, not the TLM. And I agree they don't want the TLM considered superior at a policy level but some individuals there may hold other views. I have never said the school is friendly to the SSPX, though Warren Carroll once said "we might have some sympathy" with the SSPX. Such sympathy would not include a full endorsement of course. Dr. O'Donnell is not the only one there with an opinion.

C.
C.
Cetil Wrote:Again I spoke of the Latin Mass, not the TLM. And I agree they don't want the TLM considered superior at a policy level but some individuals there may hold other views. I have never said the school is friendly to the SSPX, though Warren Carroll once said "we might have some sympathy" with the SSPX. Such sympathy would not include a full endorsement of course. Dr. O'Donnell is not the only one there with an opinion.

C.
C.

The term "Latin Mass" is overwhelmingly and almost universally used to denote the TLM. If you wish to convey your point with due clarity, simply say, "Christendom prefers the Novus Ordo celebrated in Latin" to avoid confusion.

I mentioned the SSPX in response to this comment of yours:
Cetil Wrote:I don't think the school is friendly to the SSPX, but it depends on what you mean by traditionalists.

Christendom College's aggression toward traditionalists has nothing to do with the SSPX and is applied with equal fervor to traditionalists of any stripe. Is this point clear? The subject of the SSPX has zero relevance to this topic. The college's hostility is directed at far more fundamental positions that are common to nearly all wings of the traditional movement. The Chaplaincy and the higher echelons of the college's hierarchy see the TLM as a retrograde assault on the progress of the Church in a post-conciliar era, and will intentionally place its celebration in as inconvenient and diminutive a time-slot as humanly possible. I am more than aware of the private opinions of individual professors (many of whom I count as my friends), but their private views are not characteristic of the modus operandi of the College itself which is accurately expressed in Dr. O'Donnell's comment to me.

To conclude: Christendom College, in its institutional capacity controlled by its hierarchy and Chaplaincy, is deliberately contemptuous of the TLM and hostile to any self-described traditionalist of any ideological bent within the traditional movement.
(12-17-2013, 02:06 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:Again I spoke of the Latin Mass, not the TLM. And I agree they don't want the TLM considered superior at a policy level but some individuals there may hold other views. I have never said the school is friendly to the SSPX, though Warren Carroll once said "we might have some sympathy" with the SSPX. Such sympathy would not include a full endorsement of course. Dr. O'Donnell is not the only one there with an opinion.

C.
C.

The term "Latin Mass" is overwhelmingly and almost universally used to denote the TLM. If you wish to convey your point with due clarity, simply say, "Christendom prefers the Novus Ordo celebrated in Latin" to avoid confusion.

I mentioned the SSPX in response to this comment of yours:
Cetil Wrote:I don't think the school is friendly to the SSPX, but it depends on what you mean by traditionalists.

Christendom College's aggression toward traditionalists has nothing to do with the SSPX and is applied with equal fervor to traditionalists of any stripe. Is this point clear? The subject of the SSPX has zero relevance to this topic. The college's hostility is directed at far more fundamental positions that are common to nearly all wings of the traditional movement. The Chaplaincy and the higher echelons of the college's hierarchy see the TLM as a retrograde assault on the progress of the Church in a post-conciliar era, and will intentionally place its celebration in as inconvenient and diminutive a time-slot as humanly possible. I am more than aware of the private opinions of individual professors (many of whom I count as my friends), but their private views are not characteristic of the modus operandi of the College itself which is accurately expressed in Dr. O'Donnell's comment to me.

To conclude: Christendom College, in its institutional capacity controlled by its hierarchy and Chaplaincy, is deliberately contemptuous of the TLM and hostile to any self-described traditionalist of any ideological bent within the traditional movement.

In my original comment I made a distinction between Latin Mass and TLM. I think that's enough as I am not aware of enforceable language protocols in this area. The college currently offers a TLM at 7:30 AM on Tuesdays. I don't think that is "inconvenient" or "dimunitive". The College's web page also notes in bold type that the TLM is available at St. John's in Front Royal at 12:30 pm every Sunday. (4 miles away). Were the school deliberately contemptuous of the TLM I think they would not schedule it at all, and that contempt would be expressly stated on its site or elsewhere. I think one can be traditional without turning it into an ideology. I don't think the SSPX or anyone other group has exclusive rights to the term.

C.
Cetil Wrote:In my original comment I made a distinction between Latin Mass and TLM. I think that's enough as I am not aware of enforceable language protocols in this area. The college currently offers a TLM at 7:30 AM on Tuesdays. I don't think that is "inconvenient" or "dimunitive". The College's web page also notes in bold type that the TLM is available at St. John's in Front Royal at 12:30 pm every Sunday. (4 miles away). Were the school deliberately contemptuous of the TLM I think they would not schedule it at all, and that contempt would be expressly stated on its site or elsewhere. I think one can be traditional without turning it into an ideology. I don't think the SSPX or anyone other group has exclusive rights to the term.

C.

Who are you arguing against, Cetil? Are you trying to convince me that what I saw, heard and personally endured was a hallucination?  ??? I'm not going to continue debating what was expressly told to me by the powers-that-be regarding the TLM and traditionalists as a whole. If you choose to believe a fanciful image of Christendom College as being a welcoming haven of traditional Catholicism, knock yourself out, pal. You're deluding yourself if you think scheduling a TLM at dawn at the beginning of the week in a college environment is a gesture of support and solidarity to the traditional liturgy. The Chaplain explicitly informed me that this inconvenient time-slot was purposefully chosen to discourage any significant attendance. "Keeping the Extraordinary extraordinary." as he so delicately put it. If you choose not to believe that, then there's nothing I can do to help you. Using your logic, the Montgomery Bus Boycott was entirely irrational since, after all, they still had access to the back of the bus and the ability to stand in the aisle, right? The single, token TLM on campus is nothing more than a superficial way of currying favor with donors and patrons of the College and being able to claim that they are of "the same mind" as Rome. Now with Francis at the helm, and his gradual revolt against his predecessor's efforts, we'll see how long this TLM remains on campus.

"One can be traditional without turning it into an ideology"? That sentence is utterly meaningless. An ideology is nothing more than a coherent, organized and articulated set of beliefs. Catholicism is an ideology and hostility toward the TLM is symptomatic of a profoundly conflicting ideology.

... and again you mention the SSPX as if they had even the slightest shred of relevance to anything we're speaking of. I realize now why I severely curbed my posting on this forum ...
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