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Full Version: was hitler ever excommunicated from church?
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(11-21-2010, 08:14 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:10 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 07:28 PM)Scythian Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 04:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know when or if he abandoned the Church. He was never formally excommunicated but neither were many dubious people throughout the centuries. While certainly he was at least a war criminal, I don't know if he ever publicly professed heresy or if he ever publicly committed any act of apostasy that would render him ipso facto excommunicated.

dosent quite matter because by around age 16 he ceased to believe in Catholicism, there are some reports of him and astrology (these are not widely regarded as legit and its regularly held that he avoided it and thought it absurd, minority saying he dabbled in it from time to time) but in adult life his religious views was a firm belief in a "greater destiny" or "fate" of supernatural origin driving him forward, however I doubt this was the God of Abraham or it having some sort of personification he was thinking about

Nevertheless, Hitler never publicly renounced Catholicism, although he was probably a heretic of some sorts.

A good part of his political approach was to appeal to the Catholic Church's hostility to Bolshevism while portraying himself as a savior of Western culture.  It worked with prelates like Bishop von Galen, but not for long.

He used religion for political gains but he was not the first nor the last political leader to do so. The question is that, despite all his crimes, it seems he never publicly renounced Catholicism.
(11-21-2010, 08:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:14 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:10 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 07:28 PM)Scythian Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 04:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know when or if he abandoned the Church. He was never formally excommunicated but neither were many dubious people throughout the centuries. While certainly he was at least a war criminal, I don't know if he ever publicly professed heresy or if he ever publicly committed any act of apostasy that would render him ipso facto excommunicated.

dosent quite matter because by around age 16 he ceased to believe in Catholicism, there are some reports of him and astrology (these are not widely regarded as legit and its regularly held that he avoided it and thought it absurd, minority saying he dabbled in it from time to time) but in adult life his religious views was a firm belief in a "greater destiny" or "fate" of supernatural origin driving him forward, however I doubt this was the God of Abraham or it having some sort of personification he was thinking about

Nevertheless, Hitler never publicly renounced Catholicism, although he was probably a heretic of some sorts.

A good part of his political approach was to appeal to the Catholic Church's hostility to Bolshevism while portraying himself as a savior of Western culture.  It worked with prelates like Bishop von Galen, but not for long.

He used religion for political gains but he was not the first nor the last political leader to do so. The question is that, despite all his crimes, it seems he never publicly renounced Catholicism.

because it wasn't expedient for him to do so.
(11-21-2010, 08:33 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:14 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:10 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 07:28 PM)Scythian Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 04:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know when or if he abandoned the Church. He was never formally excommunicated but neither were many dubious people throughout the centuries. While certainly he was at least a war criminal, I don't know if he ever publicly professed heresy or if he ever publicly committed any act of apostasy that would render him ipso facto excommunicated.

dosent quite matter because by around age 16 he ceased to believe in Catholicism, there are some reports of him and astrology (these are not widely regarded as legit and its regularly held that he avoided it and thought it absurd, minority saying he dabbled in it from time to time) but in adult life his religious views was a firm belief in a "greater destiny" or "fate" of supernatural origin driving him forward, however I doubt this was the God of Abraham or it having some sort of personification he was thinking about

Nevertheless, Hitler never publicly renounced Catholicism, although he was probably a heretic of some sorts.

A good part of his political approach was to appeal to the Catholic Church's hostility to Bolshevism while portraying himself as a savior of Western culture.  It worked with prelates like Bishop von Galen, but not for long.

He used religion for political gains but he was not the first nor the last political leader to do so. The question is that, despite all his crimes, it seems he never publicly renounced Catholicism.

because it wasn't expedient for him to do so.

Perhaps, we'll never know.

For the sake of his soul, it was best that he never severed his ties with the Church.
hey this was interesting thread. thank for making it intersting with intersting coments and insights!!!!
as for hitler renouncing catholicism in some public statement, if for political benefit im sure he would of done it - i really think it was a total non-issue for him and never gave it much thought, the Catholic religion at all that is, save for when he was manipulating the church or persecuting it (in poland espiecially) for political reasons. though i wouldnt call him anti-catholic belief wise - he had an issue early in the party with a certain lutheran being savagely anti-catholic - he said the bigotry disgusted him (/uberirony). his issues with the church seem to be for pure political reasons, and he was not hesitant to totally wipe it out if it got in the way of the national socialist agenda, such was the case in poland.

he mentioned once that he was disappointed that Christianity was Germany's religion, he thought Islam would of been better since it allowed for a more prophetic militancy he thought would of fitted the Third Reich well - i wish i could give a source, i forgot where i read that, it might have been in mien kampf... there was a Bosnian Muslim SS Division (they even got to wear special cool nazi fez hats), and the grand mufti of jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, was pro-nazi and was trying to spread nazi sympathy among the arab world, he had to go into hiding from the british for it.

he could of, however unlikely, repented. i think (as do other people including Josef Stalin) that he escaped the bunker and ended up either in south america or some backwater in sweden. i would hope any sinner - mao, stalin et al  and in the future bin laden would do so in their last moments
(11-21-2010, 08:36 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:33 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:14 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 08:10 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 07:28 PM)Scythian Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2010, 04:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know when or if he abandoned the Church. He was never formally excommunicated but neither were many dubious people throughout the centuries. While certainly he was at least a war criminal, I don't know if he ever publicly professed heresy or if he ever publicly committed any act of apostasy that would render him ipso facto excommunicated.

dosent quite matter because by around age 16 he ceased to believe in Catholicism, there are some reports of him and astrology (these are not widely regarded as legit and its regularly held that he avoided it and thought it absurd, minority saying he dabbled in it from time to time) but in adult life his religious views was a firm belief in a "greater destiny" or "fate" of supernatural origin driving him forward, however I doubt this was the God of Abraham or it having some sort of personification he was thinking about

Nevertheless, Hitler never publicly renounced Catholicism, although he was probably a heretic of some sorts.

A good part of his political approach was to appeal to the Catholic Church's hostility to Bolshevism while portraying himself as a savior of Western culture.  It worked with prelates like Bishop von Galen, but not for long.

He used religion for political gains but he was not the first nor the last political leader to do so. The question is that, despite all his crimes, it seems he never publicly renounced Catholicism.

because it wasn't expedient for him to do so.

Perhaps, we'll never know.

For the sake of his soul, it was best that he never severed his ties with the Church.

It's something which you can understand if you read what the German government was doing with regard to "Gleichanschaltung" which worked to weld various institutions to the principles of National Socialism.  It paved the way for this process by portraying itself as a friend of Christianity and Western Civilization, and it planned on liquidating what was left of the Roman Church after it had secured the victories it mistakenly foresaw in the East.  So, Hitler's hostility to Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general is well-documented.

This is a pattern of Bismarck's Kulturkampf and it was what Hitler intended upon doing as well.  Alienating the Catholic Church in Germany wasn't something he wanted to do while he was attempting to destroy Bolshevism and keep the English at bay while avoiding the Americans intervening at the same time. 
(11-21-2010, 03:27 PM)icecream Wrote: [ -> ]interesting question, isnt it?

Not really.  Any fool knows that Hitler didn't care at all about being Catholic.  He would be photographed leaving a church and he would talk about God but it was all for show, as with most politicians.

If Pope Pius XII had excommunicated Hitler, Hitler would simply have used it as an excuse to kill more Catholics.  I just wrote about this in another thread:

Pius spoke out against the Nazis as much as he dared; it was a very difficult situation because criticism of the Nazis might lead them to commit even greater atrocities.  On 2 August 1942, Jews and Catholics in the Netherlands were rounded up and sent to transit camps, then to concentration camps, in an act of retaliation against the letter of protest written by the Dutch Roman Catholic Bishops against the pogroms and deportations of Jews. 

From what I have read in various sources, I believe this letter was read to all Catholics at Mass in the Netherlands the Sunday just before the Nazi retaliation.  St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, who was born Edith Stein, youngest child of a large Jewish family, and her sister Rosa, also a Discalced Carmelite, were among those taken into custody on 2 August.  They were taken to Auschwitz on 7 August, probably gassed on 9 August.  This is the URL to the Vatican's page on St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, which details those events as well as others of her life:

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/litu...in_en.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/o9s6q

People show their ignorance, and stupidity as well, when they ask why Pope Pius XII didn't excommunicate Hitler and Mussolini.  Neither "great leader" would have cared a whit about being excommunicated since neither was a true Catholic.  What if he'd threatened to excommunicate all who served in the Nazi or Fascist armies?  Can anyone seriously believe that they would have all ceased to fight?  Every man would know that there would be plenty of men who would continue to fight and those men would also be used to make up firing squads to shoot those who refused to follow orders? 

It's ridiculous to think that very many Fascist and Nazi soldiers would have been willing to be martyred for their faith, even if their faith was very strong.  Most people don't have that much courage and would have told themselves the war would soon end and they could put it all behind them.  Even men who had the courage to die for their faith would have known that if the Nazis and Fascists won the war, they'd be remembered as traitors and their families treated badly for years, perhaps for several generations.  The families of men who came from large cities might have escaped being stigmatized but all the rest would bear a mark of shame unless they moved far from their hometowns and perhaps also changed their names.

The lies against Pius are well disproven by the fact that after the war the Chief Rabbi of Rome, having seen a true Christian in the person of the Pope, became a Catholic and took Eugenio as his baptismal name.  Pius XII, of course, was born Eugenio Pacelli.

He never publicly renounced the Church because he was never publicly a member. He openly held to a vague notion of Christianity because it was "European", but then again, he only held to a racist version of Jesus.
(11-22-2010, 03:23 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]He never publicly renounced the Church because he was never publicly a member.

He was baptized and grew up in the Church. It's as "public" as it gets.

Quote:He openly held to a vague notion of Christianity because it was "European", but then again, he only held to a racist version of Jesus.

I've never found any consensus on Hitler's personal beliefs. I think the he probably lapsed into heresy of some sort given his political action and speech. Nevertheless, he never renounced the Church in a public and formal manner.
Bishop Williamson's followers should know.  They claim to know the real truth of the Holocaust so should be experts at all things Nazi.
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