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Hi folks, its seems to me that from looking at both the traditionalist and modernist that neither have the correct argument and that both are wrong.

for example: the trad rejects vatican II and wants to revisit the past and the modernist accept vatican two but has interpretated wrongly and is promoting much heresy within the church and it is a shame. both are like two baldy men fighting over a comb.

thus the words of Archbishop fulton sheen comes to mind that: the church is more fundamental than the fundamentalist and more modern than the modernist.

for a more well-rounded view of my problem you could I suppose view my blog post ( which would save me from typing it all here again ) at : http://loyaltothemagisterium.wordpress.c...modernism/

Infact there is another man who I feel has put it down to a tee and hit the nail on the head and his name is Paul Joseph stines and his latest blog post upon this argument in the church can be viewed at : http://catholicwitness.wordpress.com/201...-credendi/


let me know what your thoughts are.

Pax et bonum

Stephen
So the Church for her first 1,930 years before Vatican II was just flat out wrong - and Vatican II was our guiding light, even though it was at odds with the previous teaching of the Church? NO, Vatican II needs to be either made null and void or completely overhauled.  Vatican II is the weapon of the Modernist takeover in the Church, plain and simple.  We are a TRADITIONAL Church - how can "revisiting the past" be seen as wrongHuh?
Stephenlig,
Would you mind explaining to me how Vatican II- and post-Vatican II-ecumenism can be reconciled with the notion of ecumenism described by both Pius XI (Mortalium Animos) and the Holy Office (December of 1949)?

According to Church teaching there is no salvation outside the Church, and yet the Church appears to be progressively moving away from her divine mission of converting non-Catholics to the one true Faith.

What gives?  Huh?
I think the TRAD wants the documents of Vatican 2 to be in union with the 2,000 years of Catholic teaching before it. Thats what the SSPX theologians and the Pope's theolgians are working towards.  Catholicism isn't Protestanism it doesn't change every century or every decade nowadays. What Catholics believed in the 1st century, the Catholics of the 5th, 10th 15th and 21st centuries must believe the same. JESUS the CHRIST is the SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER!!
You might want to read what the forum owners have to say when they give a good overview of Traditionalism, for starters.

http://www.fisheaters.com/traditionalcatholicism.html
(11-27-2010, 06:25 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]Stephenlig,
Would you mind explaining to me how Vatican II- and post-Vatican II-ecumenism can be reconciled with the notion of ecumenism described by both Pius XI (Mortalium Animos) and the Holy Office (December of 1949)?

According to Church teaching there is no salvation outside the Church, and yet the Church appears to be progressively moving away from her divine mission of converting non-Catholics to the one true Faith.

What gives?  Huh?

if the Church is moving away from her mission to converting non catholics to the faith, then how come His Holiness through the new anglican rite has just brought many more non-catholics home? also I need to see the contention against the vatican II ecumenism and why traditional extremists think that it is false.

from the link I provided it seems that both are refusing to accept Vatican II and are interpretating it wrongly.

Pax et Bonum

Stephen
(11-27-2010, 08:27 PM)Stephentlig Wrote: [ -> ]...and why traditional extremists...

Yes, the "Lefevre Martyrs' Brigades." Extremists! Terrorists!
Quote:its seems to me that from looking at both the traditionalist and modernist that neither have the correct argument and that both are wrong. for example: the trad rejects vatican II and wants to revisit the past ...

That's your ipse dixit.  True Catholics (forget "trad") don't want to visit the past; Catholics are living Catholicism as it has been for two thousand years.  If you are saying that Christ is not the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, then you are simply wrong.  Christ does not have a past, or future' He is always here'; so neither do true Catholics who are faithful to Him.

(11-27-2010, 08:27 PM)Stephentlig Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-27-2010, 06:25 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]Stephenlig,
Would you mind explaining to me how Vatican II- and post-Vatican II-ecumenism can be reconciled with the notion of ecumenism described by both Pius XI (Mortalium Animos) and the Holy Office (December of 1949)?

According to Church teaching there is no salvation outside the Church, and yet the Church appears to be progressively moving away from her divine mission of converting non-Catholics to the one true Faith.

What gives?  Huh?

if the Church is moving away from her mission to converting non catholics to the faith, then how come His Holiness through the new anglican rite has just brought many more non-catholics home? also I need to see the contention against the vatican II ecumenism and why traditional extremists think that it is false.

from the link I provided it seems that both are refusing to accept Vatican II and are interpretating it wrongly.

Pax et Bonum

Stephen


The first thing you have to do is realize that not all traditionalists are "extremist" . Then know there is ecumenism of return and false ecumenism.

Don't think error and heresy can't surface within the Church. History shows otherwise.
(11-27-2010, 08:27 PM)Stephentlig Wrote: [ -> ]if the Church is moving away from her mission to converting non catholics to the faith, then how come His Holiness through the new anglican rite has just brought many more non-catholics home? also I need to see the contention against the vatican II ecumenism and why traditional extremists think that it is false.

from the link I provided it seems that both are refusing to accept Vatican II and are interpretating it wrongly.

Pax et Bonum

Stephen

First, I do praise the Holy Father for bringing the traditional Anglicans into the Catholic Church.  That is truly a cause for celebration!  On the other hand, there is still the fact that one dicastery, the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, has published documents that have questionable statements in them.

For example, in Uniatism, Method of Union of the Past, and the Present Search for Full Communion, we read that after the separation between East and West, "the Catholic Church developed the theological vision according to which she presented herself as the only one to whom salvation was entrusted" (n. 10). And later, we see that the current attitude is stated thus: "in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to ensure their salvation" (n. 15).

We can reasonably conclude from this that salvation has not been solely entrusted to the Catholic Church (in contradiction to the councils of Lateran IV and Florence) and that the schismatics need not embrace the true Catholic faith for their salvation (in contradiction to the Tridentine Profession of Faith). The document, however, seems to contradict itself when it says the two Churches seek "full accord on the content of the faith" (n. 15). Why - or how - would the Catholic Church be on a quest with the Orthodox Church for full agreement on the content of the faith in such a way that the Orthodox do not need to convert?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontif...on_en.html

Contrast that document with the Church's "old" understanding of ecumenism: "the only true union by the return of the dissidents to the one true Church of Christ" (Instruction of the Holy Office on the Ecumenical Movement, 20 December 1949).

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECUM.HTM

And again: "the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it" (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, n. 10; 6 January 1928).

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x...os_en.html
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