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(12-29-2010, 04:21 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, you know what else would be awesome? If all these lower clerics could get together every week to lead Sunday Vespers.

Of course, there's no reason why laymen shouldn't be able to do this even now, is there?
(01-19-2011, 02:58 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: [ -> ]Alright HK, you have my excited and sold on the idea of teaching brothers or teaching Deacons, but I don't share your rejection of teaching sisters.  Why not a both/and approach?  I think men and women have complimentary strengths as teachers.

We have all become accustomed to women being "school teachers" but I think an argument can be made that "teaching" is more a paternal role, rather than maternal, due in large part to the question of discipline.  Ought our children see women as disciplinarians rather than nurturers?  There is also the question of classrooms being all girls or all boys, rather than co-ed.  Current organized schooling has drifted far from where it was 200 or more years ago, thanks in no small part to the diabolically-influenced Horace Mann; and certainly, the aims of government schooling are quite different from those of traditional Catholic schools.  In discussing educational systems, one ought to consider how we got to where we are today.  What is the relationship of technical instruction to classical instruction in the humanities/liberal arts?  How and why are we teaching the things we do teach in school?  What of apprenticeships and the like? 
(01-19-2011, 02:37 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps HK should begin the pious sodality for the restoration of the Minor Orders.

If I can find enough people who care, then perhaps.

Quote:HK, you mentioned elsewhere that the Tridentine fathers considered the restoration of the permanent diaconate.  Do you have a source for this?

For an actual text from the Council, the one I posted earlier in the thread applies to all orders below priesthood, not only minor.

Trent, Session 23, Decree on Reformation, Chapter 17 Wrote:In what manner the exercise of the minor orders is to be restored.

That the functions of holy orders, from the deacon to the janitor,-which functions have been laudably received in the Church from the times of the apostles, and which have been for some time interrupted in very many places,-may be again brought into use in accordance with the sacred canons; and that they may not be traduced by heretics as useless; the holy Synod, burning with the desire of restoring the pristine usage, ordains that, for the future, such functions shall not be exercised but by those who are actually in the said orders; and It exhorts in the Lord all and each of the prelates of the churches, and commands them, that it be their care to restore the said [Page 187] functions, as far as it can be conveniently done, in the cathedral, collegiate, and parochial churches of their dioceses, where the number of the people and the revenues of the church can support it; and, to those who exercise those functions, they shall assign salaries out of some part of the revenues of any simple benefices, or those of the fabric of the church,-if the funds allow of it,-or out of the revenues of both together, of which stipends they may, if negligent, be mulcted in a part, or be wholly deprived thereof, according to the judgment of the Ordinary. And if there should not be unmarried clerics at hand to exercise the functions of the four minor orders, their place may be supplied by married clerics of approved life; provided they have not been twice married, be competent to discharge the said duties, and wear the tonsure and the clerical dress in church.

I've thought for a very long time that the attitude of some Catholics that the diaconate is worthless except as a stepping stone to the priesthood is basically a thinly veiled heresy, since it implies Christ established an order that would be obsolete.

There was a book on the diaconate that treated several pages on Trent, but I unfortunately lost it. I posted it on the forum before, though. If I find it, I'll repost it.


Chirstus Imperat Wrote:Alright HK, you have my excited and sold on the idea of teaching brothers or teaching Deacons, but I don't share your rejection of teaching sisters.  Why not a both/and approach?  I think men and women have complimentary strengths as teachers.

I don't actually have anything against teaching sisters, but they're more a part of early 20th century traditionalism than perennial tradition. Before the Victorian period, the concept of sisters teaching anyone other than small children or girls just wasn't thought of. But because there was a growing vacancy left by fewer and fewer clerics, sisters filled the gap. Now we've grown accustomed to the idea that "priests and nuns" is the ideal traditional Church model. But that's simply not the case. Christ established a Church governed by bishops, priests and deacons, the three divine orders. The Church then established the subdiaconate and the four minor orders to fill additional needs over time. But not sisters.

What it all boils down to is: if women are forbidden from speaking in church as Scripture says, we should apply it on a more universal level. The point is that God has given it to men (especially clerics) to teach on matters concerning faith. Allowing women to teach theology in the school hall but not be lectors or whatever is asking for trouble. It was sisters, after all, who spearheaded so many of the post-Vatican II atrocities we see today.


spasiisochrani Wrote:Of course, there's no reason why laymen shouldn't be able to do this even now, is there?

No, of course not. My schola organized a sung Sunday Vespers for 1962 Mass devotees once with full chant antiphons, and everyone present were laity. It was awesome, but it's difficult to get interest in future Offices.

Since deacons are obliged to pray the Office, though, if they were in charge of altar societies they would have more reason to get all those guys to sing the Office with them.
On the subject of Trent and the diaconate, here are some clippings of books I've found on my Photobucket, but I failed to make note of exactly which books these came from.

[Image: trent.jpg]

And this from another book:
[Image: trent2.jpg]
        [Image: trent3.jpg]
It is one thing to say we should restore the minor orders - or that women can never be ordained. It is another to say that women should have no place singing in the choir, teaching in classrooms, or editing the Sunday bulletin.  Dream all you want, but that kind of "boys only club" will never return, thanks be to God.

Further, women started teaching orders. Angela Merici, 15th century. Mother Seton, 19th century, just to name a few.

St. Cecilia - a woman - is the patron saint of musicians.

There is nothing to keep women from being secretaries in the church setting. They are simply recorders. 

HK Wrote:What it all boils down to is: if women are forbidden from speaking in church as Scripture says, we should apply it on a more universal level. The point is that God has given it to men (especially clerics) to teach on matters concerning faith. Allowing women to teach theology in the school hall but not be lectors or whatever is asking for trouble. It was sisters, after all, who spearheaded so many of the post-Vatican II atrocities we see today.

It's talk like this that keeps people like me from taking traditionalism seriously.
(01-19-2011, 04:40 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Further, women started teaching orders. Angela Merici, 15th century. Mother Seton, 19th century, just to name a few.

You neglected to mention that these two women started schools for girls only.
(01-19-2011, 04:25 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-19-2011, 02:37 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps HK should begin the pious sodality for the restoration of the Minor Orders.

If I can find enough people who care, then perhaps.

I haven't posted in here, but have been reading since the thread's start, and you've got (had) me convinced pretty early.

So, what would such a group do, and how would they further such aims?

Joking aside, do you think it's possible? Further, is this something we should even think about as trads, meaning this sort of 'lay activism' we've decried in the past in it's pro-conciliar forms....
(01-19-2011, 04:40 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]It's talk like this that keeps people like me from taking traditionalism seriously.

Is this because you have a scriptural reason to contradict this, or is this egotism?
(01-19-2011, 05:05 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-19-2011, 04:40 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]It's talk like this that keeps people like me from taking traditionalism seriously.

Is this because you have a scriptural reason to contradict this, or is this egotism?

We're talking about singing in the choir and editing bulletins for goodness sake!
(01-19-2011, 05:00 PM)Anthem Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-19-2011, 04:40 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Further, women started teaching orders. Angela Merici, 15th century. Mother Seton, 19th century, just to name a few.

You neglected to mention that these two women started schools for girls only.

So?
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