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(01-19-2011, 04:40 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
HK Wrote:What it all boils down to is: if women are forbidden from speaking in church as Scripture says, we should apply it on a more universal level. The point is that God has given it to men (especially clerics) to teach on matters concerning faith. Allowing women to teach theology in the school hall but not be lectors or whatever is asking for trouble. It was sisters, after all, who spearheaded so many of the post-Vatican II atrocities we see today.

It's talk like this that keeps people like me from taking traditionalism seriously.

If you havent' taken "traditionalism" seriously by now, I doubt you'll ever do.

The question of Tradition in the post-conciliar context is first and foremost about doctrinal truth. It's a strong stance against error and indifferentism. It's not about "smells and bells" or liturgical preferences but a fight for the very soul of the Church. It's the Catholic faith that is at stake, nothing more, nothing less. As Abp. Lefebvre so aptly summarised: "The evil of the Council is the ignorance of Jesus Christ and of His Kingdom." This is completely true, it's at the root of all post-conciliar evil.

The dice are cast, it's up for each one of us to embrace the fight or not. Some have responded to God's grace and have been able to join the ranks, others haven't.

Such is life.
(01-19-2011, 04:25 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: [ -> ]What it all boils down to is: if women are forbidden from speaking in church as Scripture says, we should apply it on a more universal level. The point is that God has given it to men (especially clerics) to teach on matters concerning faith. Allowing women to teach theology in the school hall but not be lectors or whatever is asking for trouble. It was sisters, after all, who spearheaded so many of the post-Vatican II atrocities we see today.

I agree that this does seem to be what is taught in Scripture. 
Quote:1 Timothy 2:11-15  -  [11] Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed; then Eve. [14] And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. [15] Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.
(01-19-2011, 05:07 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-19-2011, 05:05 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-19-2011, 04:40 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]It's talk like this that keeps people like me from taking traditionalism seriously.

Is this because you have a scriptural reason to contradict this, or is this egotism?

We're talking about singing in the choir and editing bulletins for goodness sake!

Actually, from context, I thought we were talking about women 'speaking' in Church, I take that to mean during the liturgy, so lectors for example.
(01-20-2011, 01:31 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, from context, I thought we were talking about women 'speaking' in Church, I take that to mean during the liturgy, so lectors for example.

That's the most essential thing, but I've been arguing for churches to be staffed entirely by clerics, if possible: deacons, subdeacons and minor orders in place of laity.
I wouldn't mind saying goodbye to lay lectors, of course that would mean laymen as well as laywomen. I don't know why women were singled out, least of all the church secretary. Realistically, having worked for the church in some capacity for the last 30 years, and parish life specifically for the last 15 years, I can tell you that the last thing any ordained minister would want is to be stuck in a parish office all day.

As for women speaking out in church, including reading/lectoring -- you have biblical support against it. But I don't see a biblical argument against women secretaries, who merely record. I sit in my office and am very quiet, no preaching, no teaching. I just tap a keyboard and take dictation. 

I don't really have a strong opinion about the minor orders either way. The minor orders do not have a divine, apostolic origin as do the priesthood and the permanent diaconate -- thus the Pope was right in restoring the diaconate.
There's a reason why desk work is called "clerical": in the Middle Ages, administration of all sorts of things were done by clerks, i.e. clerics.

Also, has anyone seen the parish bulletins out there? The last thing they need is a woman's touch.

(Before SCG gets offended, I was being partially facetious there.)
I like HK's idea here, but SCG has it right on the Parish secretary. If you had experience running something like a Parish or a small businesses with the same amount of variables to be handled every day, you'd thank the Lord for a good secretary that could keep the communication on line and in line. I know I did, in business.
tim
(01-20-2011, 04:42 PM)timoose Wrote: [ -> ]I like HK's idea here, but SCG has it right on the Parish secretary. If you had experience running something like a Parish or a small businesses with the same amount of variables to be handled every day, you'd thank the Lord for a good secretary that could keep the communication on line and in line. I know I did, in business.
tim

Oh how I wish I had a smilie that nodded her pretty head up and down.  :)
(01-20-2011, 04:41 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: [ -> ]There's a reason why desk work is called "clerical": in the Middle Ages, administration of all sorts of things were done by clerks, i.e. clerics.

HK, that's because in those days only clerics (and nobles) for the most part could read and write.
HK:
Here is an interesting passage I just found from St. John Chrysostom's work On the Priesthood, Book III

Quote:9. And first of all is that most terrible rock of vainglory, more dangerous than that of the Sirens, of which the fable-mongers tell such marvellous tales: for many were able to sail past that and escape unscathed; but this is to me so dangerous that even now, when no necessity of any kind impels me into that abyss, I am unable to keep clear of the snare: but if any one were to commit this charge to me, it would be all the same as if he tied my hands behind my back, and delivered me to the wild beasts dwelling on that rock to rend me in pieces day by day. Do you ask what those wild beasts are? They are wrath, despondency, envy, strife, slanders, accusations, falsehood, hypocrisy, intrigues, anger against those who have done no harm, pleasure at the indecorous acts of fellow ministers, sorrow at their prosperity, love of praise, desire of honor (which indeed most of all drives the human soul headlong to perdition), doctrines devised to please, servile flatteries, ignoble fawning, contempt of the poor, paying court to the rich, senseless and mischievous honors, favors attended with danger both to those who offer and those who accept them, sordid fear suited only to the basest of slaves, the abolition of plain speaking, a great affectation of humility, but banishment of truth, the suppression of convictions and reproofs, or rather the excessive use of them against the poor, while against those who are invested with power no one dare open his lips.

For all these wild beasts, and more than these, are bred upon that rock of which I have spoken, and those whom they have once captured are inevitably dragged down into such a depth of servitude that even to please women they often do many things which it is well not to mention. The divine law indeed has excluded women from the ministry, but they endeavor to thrust themselves into it; and since they can effect nothing of themselves, they do all through the agency of others; and they have become invested with so much power that they can appoint or eject priests at their will: things in fact are turned upside down, and the proverbial saying may be seen realized— "The ruled lead the rulers:" and would that it were men who do this instead of women, who have not received a commission to teach. Why do I say teach? For the blessed Paul did not suffer them even to speak in the Church. But I have heard some one say that they have obtained such a large privilege of free speech, as even to rebuke the prelates of the Churches, and censure them more severely than masters do their own domestics.
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