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Full Version: My husband, Jesus and original sin
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Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

(01-08-2011, 10:11 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]God expects spouses to put up with each other till death - that is what they vowed is it not? 

(01-06-2011, 10:06 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]Make a point to be as obedient, sweet and cheerful as possible in all matters in which you can obey him, but he does not have an absolute right over you. 

(01-04-2011, 08:37 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]The best possible advice I can give you is this: "We ought to obey God, rather than men" (Acts 5:29).  You are responsible for your own soul, and in the order of charity, you must love God above all else, then yourself, and then your neighbor (which includes your husband and children).  

(01-07-2011, 07:32 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]The conditions under which it is moral to get a divorce are quite rare and there is no indication in what you have said so far that it applies to your situation.
(01-12-2011, 08:49 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2011, 08:43 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]OK, well, let's figure out what you said, whether you realize it or not, before I comment on what you've added.

Condone:

Quote:: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

Has anyone said or treated the abuse as: acceptable, forgivable or harmless?  Yes or no?

If no, and you want to use different wording, fine.  I'm objecting to your characterization that abuse was somehow condoned which has a specific meaning.  If that's not what you meant, fair enough.

You can condone something by not condemning it. That's what it means by "treat....as acceptable." The problem is what is NOT being said, and what is being brushed aside.

You answered my question that no one actively said it was acceptable, forgivable or harmless.  Thank you.

Since your concern is what is not being said, I'll say it.  The way he treats her with regard to theology, from her description, is abusive and reprehensible.  It should not be tolerated. OK?

But her question is how to fix the problem, not how to get out of it.  Leaving does not fix a problem, it just gets rid of it.  Besides putting up with a problem or leaving, the third option is to fix the problem, and that is what she is asking advice on: how to fix it.  Answering her question about how to fix the problem isn't condoning anything.  You may have the opinion she should leave him, and fair enough, but the fact that others don't share that opinion isn't condoning abuse.

The OP said:

Quote:this is the ONLY thing we have problems with and now this guy and him are putting up some website espousing their beliefs for the world to see...we don't argue about anything else BUT THIS ONE THING how insane!

It seems to me if they could fix this "one thing" things would be better.  My opinion is to try and fix it rather than leave.

If people said "do nothing" that would be condoning it; wanting to help her fix it, which is what it seems like she wants, is not condoning the abuse; in fact, it's the contrary.
(01-12-2011, 09:04 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

(01-08-2011, 10:11 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]God expects spouses to put up with each other till death - that is what they vowed is it not? 

(01-06-2011, 10:06 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]Make a point to be as obedient, sweet and cheerful as possible in all matters in which you can obey him, but he does not have an absolute right over you. 

(01-04-2011, 08:37 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]The best possible advice I can give you is this: "We ought to obey God, rather than men" (Acts 5:29).  You are responsible for your own soul, and in the order of charity, you must love God above all else, then yourself, and then your neighbor (which includes your husband and children).  

(01-07-2011, 07:32 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]The conditions under which it is moral to get a divorce are quite rare and there is no indication in what you have said so far that it applies to your situation.

I see people saying not to get divorced.  I don't see anyone saying she should sit there and take it.  If you look at those quotes in context, the context tells her she should do a number of things including convert without his "permission".
I am reminded of gooses and ganders ...
(01-12-2011, 09:11 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]I am reminded of gooses and ganders ...

Are you referring to me?
(01-12-2011, 09:04 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]You answered my question that no one actively said it was acceptable, forgivable or harmless.  Thank you.

I didn't understand the relevance of your question since my point still stands.

If you think you can "fix" an abuser, you've obviously never dealt with one.

This isn't an occasional dinnertime argument. He is harassing her and emotionally abusing her, and trying to fix him is going to go nowhere.

Maybe my advice is wrong but the rest of the advice here is totally useless, if not downright harmful. I love how so many trads live in this little daydream where if you provide the exact, correct theological evidence (fully cited, of course!) your personal problems will all be solved and everyone can live in peace.

She's not going to convince him of anything, and this is not a question of winning an argument. It wouldn't matter if she was a hindu and he was a wiccan--it's the way he's treating her that's the point.

Quote:Since your concern is what is not being said, I'll say it.  The way he treats her with regard to theology, from her description, is abusive and reprehensible.  It should not be tolerated. OK?

Okay. So what should be done about it?
(01-08-2011, 09:31 AM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]Yet again someone has written in with serious problems seeking help and it has been derailed by people projecting their own issues and quarrels into it.  Could you please confine your attacks on me to threads where it does not interfere with people getting help.

And perhaps someone could start a thread on what the Church actually says about divorce so we can clear up these misunderstandings without derailing important threads.


I probably should have quoted what got my ire....here it is...sorry it looked like last refered post...I did that to voxpop the other day too...he thought I was talking about some bible verse instead of his OP
(01-12-2011, 09:15 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2011, 09:04 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]You answered my question that no one actively said it was acceptable, forgivable or harmless.  Thank you.

I didn't understand the relevance of your question since my point still stands.

If you think you can "fix" an abuser, you've obviously never dealt with one.

Well, IMO you would be wrong as far as me dealing with one.  I also think you're wrong that an abuser can't be fixed because that goes against free will.  However, I don't know that this person is an actual abuser as much as an idiot, but obviously one should not live in the house in risk of their life trying to fix someone.  As far as insults go, some people can hold up to them better than others, so while it is objectively abuse, the harm of the abuse can be subjective.

Your point doesn't still stand.  You say people are condoning abuse, when they are not.  They are not telling her she should put up with it, which is what condoning would mean.

Quote:This isn't an occasional dinnertime argument. He is harassing her and emotionally abusing her, and trying to fix him is going to go nowhere.

Maybe my advice is wrong but the rest of the advice here is totally useless, if not downright harmful. I love how so many trads live in this little daydream where if you provide the exact, correct theological evidence (fully cited, of course!) your personal problems will all be solved and everyone can live in peace.

She's not going to convince him of anything, and this is not a question of winning an argument. It wouldn't matter if she was a hindu and he was a wiccan--it's the way he's treating her that's the point.

Unless you have a crystal ball, you don't know she's not going to convince him of anything.  Their marriage did not start this way, by her own words.  It was only after he fell under the spell of this freak.  It is her opinion if she breaks her husband of this spell, things will go back to being normal, at least by her standards whatever they are.

The problem I have with your opinion is the rhetoric attached to it.  Just because people tell her to try and fix it doesn't mean they think she should sit around and get abused, which is how you are characterizing everything.

Quote:
Quote:Since your concern is what is not being said, I'll say it.  The way he treats her with regard to theology, from her description, is abusive and reprehensible.  It should not be tolerated. OK?

Okay. So what should be done about it?


Well, see my original posts.  Also see that I said I wouldn't give marriage advice.  But, since I don't want to avoid your question, the first thing I would suggest is unless she thinks he is going to kill her in response, she convert and bring the problem to a head while at the same time saving her soul.  He may, in fact, divorce her if she becomes Catholic.  If he's like you paint him, he may smack her.  All the better, in a sense, to get one smack that someone can recover from because he'll go to jail where he belongs, and again if you are correct, it's just bringing to fruition what you are accusing him of.

If she's willing to be martyred, she should convert even if she thinks he will kill her for it.  In practical terms, though, that is obviously not necessary.  I'm just pointing out that in all cases, even risking death, becoming Catholic is the right thing to do.

So, that's my answer.  She should convert to Catholicism and go from there.
(01-12-2011, 09:25 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-08-2011, 09:31 AM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]Yet again someone has written in with serious problems seeking help and it has been derailed by people projecting their own issues and quarrels into it.  Could you please confine your attacks on me to threads where it does not interfere with people getting help.

And perhaps someone could start a thread on what the Church actually says about divorce so we can clear up these misunderstandings without derailing important threads.


I probably should have quoted what got my ire....here it is...sorry it looked like last refered post...I did that to voxpop the other day too...he thought I was talking about some bible verse instead of his OP

Scipio, your avatar's neckline is too low. 

(If you want to fight that badly, I figured I should help you out.)
(01-04-2011, 05:33 PM)traditionalmom Wrote: [ -> ]PS my husband has brow beaten me so many times I (sadly to my shame) have cowed down to him and "agreed" just so he'll treat me like a person again not some feminist rebel heretic under his roof. He can be quite brutal verbally if I dare disagree with him and take the "Pope's side"....

This is abuse. A normal person does not start acting this way because he became friends with a "freak." This is much more than acting like an "idiot."

My point does stand. I know what condone means and I'm good with words and I don't play that game.
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