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Full Version: My husband, Jesus and original sin
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I, for one, am never going to advise anyone to divorce unless it is a pressing necessity -- someone's getting beaten up, molested, that kind of thing. Why? Because divorce is impractical. It creates a whole new set of problems, often without solving the original problem. Not everyone has the resources to be able to just pick up and leave. You need someplace to go, which becomes more complicated the more children you have to take with you. If you're a stay-at-home mother, you're probably going to have to get a full-time job that will allow you to support yourself and your children, and then you're going to have to find childcare. You may or may not have help doing these things. Then you have to go to court and battle to not lose absolutely everything, including your children, and to get child support. Then unless your former spouse buggers off, you're going to have to still deal with him at least until your youngest child turns 18, and he may be vindictive enough to cause a new host of problems for you, problems that you will be limited in what you can do about them because your ex-spouse is going to have the kids alone with him in his own home part of the time. Etc. etc. So, all moral and theological problems aside, I'd advise any woman with children to stay and do what she can to better her situation unless it is so bad that the new problems she'd get with divorce are unlikely to be worse. That does not sound like the case here. In fact, if a divorce is to happen here, it would be better for the OP to let her husband instigate it since it seems to me she'd get the better deal in that case. If she left him for religious reasons, unable to prove any sort of abuse, she'd almost certainly get the short end of the stick. My mother left my father for mental cruelty or something like that, and it did not go well.

Furthermore, you have to remember that the husband thinks the Church is the Whore of Babylon, so of course he is reacting in an extreme way. If my spouse converted after marriage to a weird cult and was planning to raise our children in it, I'd browbeat him for sure and probably threaten him with all kinds of things, divorce being the least of them. Counterproductive and wrong, yes, but it's a natural panicked reaction. The man could be a total a-hole who just wants to dominate his wife, but he could also be a relatively normal person who is in fear for the soul of his wife and the souls of their children.
Here is an idea...

b) Praying outside the trinity to saints and Mary is in reality talking to devils

(John 2:1-11)  Jesus was at a wedding. When the wine ran out, Mary told her son to make wine, and so he did.

We pray to Mary not because she is God, but the mother of Jesus and for her intervention from our prayers.
(01-13-2011, 10:58 AM)Satori Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore, you have to remember that the husband thinks the Church is the Whore of Babylon, so of course he is reacting in an extreme way. If my spouse converted after marriage to a weird cult and was planning to raise our children in it, I'd browbeat him for sure and probably threaten him with all kinds of things, divorce being the least of them. Counterproductive and wrong, yes, but it's a natural panicked reaction. The man could be a total a-hole who just wants to dominate his wife, but he could also be a relatively normal person who is in fear for the soul of his wife and the souls of their children.

Now, there's a reasonable assumption.
(01-13-2011, 04:09 PM)Rock Wrote: [ -> ]Here is an idea...

b) Praying outside the trinity to saints and Mary is in reality talking to devils

(John 2:1-11)  Jesus was at a wedding. When the wine ran out, Mary told her son to make wine, and so he did.

We pray to Mary not because she is God, but the mother of Jesus and for her intervention from our prayers.



The same applies to saints...just as you ask your mom or dad or friends to pray for you or you post a prayer request on the forum to get others to pray for you....

Try to be helpful next time...troll
(01-13-2011, 04:15 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-13-2011, 04:09 PM)Rock Wrote: [ -> ]Here is an idea...

b) Praying outside the trinity to saints and Mary is in reality talking to devils

(John 2:1-11)  Jesus was at a wedding. When the wine ran out, Mary told her son to make wine, and so he did.

We pray to Mary not because she is God, but the mother of Jesus and for her intervention from our prayers.



The same applies to saints...just as you ask your mom or dad or friends to pray for you or you post a prayer request on the forum to get others to pray for you....

Try to be helpful next time...troll

I do not think he was criticising this practice. He was offering a response to the issue listed as "b" in the initial post of the topic.
(01-13-2011, 04:18 PM)Gladium Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-13-2011, 04:15 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-13-2011, 04:09 PM)Rock Wrote: [ -> ]Here is an idea...

b) Praying outside the trinity to saints and Mary is in reality talking to devils

(John 2:1-11)  Jesus was at a wedding. When the wine ran out, Mary told her son to make wine, and so he did.

We pray to Mary not because she is God, but the mother of Jesus and for her intervention from our prayers.



The same applies to saints...just as you ask your mom or dad or friends to pray for you or you post a prayer request on the forum to get others to pray for you....

Try to be helpful next time...troll

I do not think he was criticising this practice. He was offering a response to the issue listed as "b" in the initial post of the topic.

Thank you for clarifying Gladium, my idea was to take one of her questions and answer it.
(01-13-2011, 08:09 AM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-13-2011, 07:56 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-13-2011, 06:21 AM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, her father is also a prot, so he's probably every bit as much of a jerk as the husband.

Yeah, we know.  To you ALL men are jerks.  You've made that clear.

You've crossed the line. First claiming that all my statements are not arguments but emotions, and now this. You sound like a sulky teenager. I'm not the one throwing a tantrum here. My statements have been reasonable and based on fact; I'm sorry if you prefer to sling mud and use the ancient "you're being emotional" argument that people resort to when they have really backed themselves into a corner.

Yes, I've crossed the line, holding your hand as we both walked across, you first.

Quote:I can't understand why you are reacting in this way. Her husband is abusive, I said so, as did others. I said she should divorce him or get a separation but most of all
she should talk to a priest. I also said I could be wrong.

You tell me I condone abuse and you're wondering why I react this way?  Are you serious?

Quote:You said she should find someone to beat him up and picked on my vocabulary, then accused me of being emotional and irrational, and imagined that I'm "calumniating" the posters on here because I think their reactions are inadequate and implicitly condone the abuse.

I'm sorry I disagree with you since it bothers you so much. However, calling me irrational is not going to make me agree with you, so please stop.

You're missing the other 5 posts where I tried to deal with you rationally.  My point is, dealing with you rationally on these topics is a lost cause.  So, I may as well have a tantrum, too.  Why not?  Also, there is something to be gained from my tantrum:  your reaction.

Quote:I don't think all men are jerks. I'm surprised that once again I have to defend myself against this absurd allegation, but here we go. Please grow up. Calling someone an abuser and saying that he should be dealt with accordingly does not in any way equal saying that "all men are jerks." 

Yes, and telling someone how to fix the abuse and not telling them to get a divorce doesn't mean condoning abuse.

Frustrating dealing with someone who acts this way, isn't it?  Accuse them of something because they disagree with you?

I can go down the line and prove implicit "man hating" as you're proving implicit "abuse condoning" to further hold up a mirror, but there's no point.  I got the reaction I wanted from you.  What you do with that reaction at being unjustly accused and if you use it to put on someone else's shoes is up to you.

(01-13-2011, 04:22 PM)Rock Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you for clarifying Gladium, my idea was to take one of her questions and answer it.

well that was clear as mud...I apologize for jumping to conclusions


Is she actually asking questions with the alpha bullet points?  Or was she just listing the crap she gets hit with daily....you see...there is no convincing people who think that way....I actually used the "ask your mom to pray for you" bit on one of these types of tools one time....and instead of getting the point...her response was "no I don't ask my mom to pray for me, she does not pray to God."

and then it became a matter of circling the wagons...so no she did not ask friends to pray for her etc...it became ridiculous.
This is her struggle and does not know how to answer... So I answered B.

a) the church ceased being in its pure form and has been corrupted since 325A.D. since it started "fornicating with the state)
b) praying outside the trinity to saints and Mary is in reality talking to devils
c) that the Trad Anglicans (those that don't condone homosexuality and female priests) are the best that one can do since the church is totally in chaos and wrecked
d) that the church is invisible today even though before 325A.D. it was visible this is because the visible sacramental churches are so unlike the "early church"
e) that I'm going to be judged as whether I was obedient to my spiritual head my husband and not whether I become Roman Catholic as I believe is the truth
f) that the doctrine of transubstantiation is "gnostic" because it denies the physical reality of the bread and wine also present
g) Mary had other children
h) Mary was not immaculately conceived since the scriptures say "all have sinned"
i) last but certainly not least that Jesus himself since he took his human nature from his mother and she was a sinner (see "h") had original sin and was equal to us yet didn't "actually" sin


Oh and the Papacy is a later invention-(this from some writings by Pope Gregory the Great that my husband claims he rails against the idea of a "universal bishop"), and the RCC is the whore of babylon the mother of all harlots (protty denominations)
(01-13-2011, 08:16 AM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]It's also sad that you are more worried about the egos of people who are supposedly being "calumniated" than you are about the OP's situation. She needs a way to defend herself; that's my concern. Your concern is the fact that I haven't lined up my views with yours and the other people who think she should take little to no action in dealing with her abuser husband. Your suggestion that her dad should go and beat up her husband is nothing but a daydream since obviously it hasn't happened and the abuse has been going on for quite some time. I'm suggesting a practical and real solution to the problem, and probably the only that will allow her convert and have any kind of peace and mind and soul. She needs to remove herself physically from the situation. There is nothing irrational or emotional about this solution. It is essentially practical, unlike the "be quiet and pray about it" comments from others.

My suggestion that her dad go and beat up the guy is a ludicrous example that there are other solutions.  Some are better than others, and, IMO, most are better than divorce at least given the facts we know.

For you, the only possible solution is divorce.  There are other solutions.  Maybe a trip to mom's with the kids for a week will give him a message.  My solution of converting and forcing the issue is another.  Going to the Anglicans and getting Communion refused for his jerk friend because of heresy and apostasy to make him sweat is another.  He's pretty brave in his garage, he might not be if the Anglicans excommunicate him.  Playing priest in your garage takes a lot less balls than having a bishop tell you that you're excommunicated.

The problem, as I see it, is that your position is unless we say "she should get divorced and now", we're condoning abuse.   Really, that's just an ad hominem attack on people who don't share your opinion.
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