FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: My husband, Jesus and original sin
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Well here it is (a little background first)...my husband and his mentor (another protty) have argued with me a "papist" (really I haven't converted yet because divorce was threatened upon me while I was pregnant with our 3rd whom I had 4 mo. ago) about the following...to which they believe and hold to...

a) the church ceased being in its pure form and has been corrupted since 325A.D. since it started "fornicating with the state)
b) praying outside the trinity to saints and Mary is in reality talking to devils
c) that the Trad Anglicans (those that don't condone homosexuality and female priests) are the best that one can do since the church is totally in chaos and wrecked
d) that the church is invisible today even though before 325A.D. it was visible this is because the visible sacramental churches are so unlike the "early church"
e) that I'm going to be judged as whether I was obedient to my spiritual head my husband and not whether I become Roman Catholic as I believe is the truth
f) that the doctrine of transubstantiation is "gnostic" because it denies the physical reality of the bread and wine also present
g) Mary had other children
h) Mary was not immaculately conceived since the scriptures say "all have sinned"
i) last but certainly not least that Jesus himself since he took his human nature from his mother and she was a sinner (see "h") had original sin and was equal to us yet didn't "actually" sin


Oh and the Papacy is a later invention-(this from some writings by Pope Gregory the Great that my husband claims he rails against the idea of a "universal bishop"), and the RCC is the whore of babylon the mother of all harlots (protty denominations)

I'm not sure what to say to them since they keep just mocking me and reminding me I'm a woman and supposed to be subordinate to my husband. And that I shouldn't be "getting my doctrine" from the internet ie you all or catholic.com. They've read alot of the Ante-Nicene writings in the Ergmen series and because of this claim they are early church in their beliefs.

This is what they mainly talk about ALL THE TIME. This guy (my husband's mentor) is writing some book on divorce remarriage claiming the man can get remarried but not the woman because she's a woman in the case of adultery even. (I hold the view of the Shepherd of Hermas (since they need some "early church" source for my reason)  that neither can remarry unless their spouse is dead). I'm tired of being mocked, hassled, and yelled at because they ask my opinion just so it seems they can throw it down and stomp on it. It's really annoying. My husband I know would not have half of the opinions he holds now without the influence of this other guy who's like 10 years older than him. I'm just pissed off and don't know what to do. I want to convert but I'm attacked all the time with this protty garbage...what to do?

tradmom
Well, let's start with the BVM and the ante-Nicean fathers.

Quote:Methodius

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

What's his response to that?

ETA: here's the link to the whole thing:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.xi.viii.html
I love my husband dearly but..........his response? (I found that also on ccel before and he just said along with his cohort "oh those are spurious writings." Just like they do about Cyprian's Unity of the Church talking about the See of Peter and the chair etc. it's spurious  ::)

His mentor buddy who was married in a civil ceremony before he became a christian and was divorced, his wife being an adulteress. He then remarried in a Quaker church to a Quaker then was baptized (afterwards) and since divorced her for adultery. Now he's single and writing his divorce remarriage book. When we met him after his first marriage in the midst of his second he had a celibate relationship with his second wife because he believed that he shouldn't have remmarried. That since changed because he had a new "understanding" of baptism to where his previous marriage was wiped out in the waters of baptism. So he began treating his second wife as a wife after 7 years of celibacy. Now he's read later than 325A.D. writers that he claims back up his "I can remarry again but she can't" about his second marriage. I only tell you all this so you can see the hypocrisy (the "we only look to the 325A.D. church for our teachings discounting prayers to saints, Mary, the Papacy etc.-that are CLEARY put forth in the nicene post nicene writings without comments of "spurious")  ???

So if it's convenient the later writers are good BUT if it backs up the RCC church it's discounted as invention of the church-state of the post nicene writers... ::)

Such is the nature of protty heresy.... :pazzo:
I guess I'm just wondering what to do? Should I just say, "I don't have a real opinion on it" (lie) or say "you don't want to hear my opinion" (which will just get me into trouble for not agreeing with them)

I'm at a loss?

Have anyone one of you heard of this kind of insanity??!!

tradmom

PS my husband has brow beaten me so many times I (sadly to my shame) have cowed down to him and "agreed" just so he'll treat me like a person again not some feminist rebel heretic under his roof. He can be quite brutal verbally if I dare disagree with him and take the "Pope's side"....

His buddy told me once in front of my 7 year old daughter that I'm "in rebellion to my husband and teaching my children to disobey him too" because I dare to disagree. They think that just because I read the same things they did and had a misunderstanding (I wasn't looking at all the writings ie the big picture and made some "anti-images" tracts) that I should be of the same opinion as them.

I wish this guy would move away or something...he has a grip on my family. When I met my husband I was allowed to disagree about theological things...this is the ONLY thing we have problems with and now this guy and him are putting up some website espousing their beliefs for the world to see...we don't argue about anything else BUT THIS ONE THING how insane! He says (my husband) that I'm spiritually divorcing him if I become Catholic because I will not be taking communion with him and our 7 year old at the Anglican church because "I'm too good too since I'd be Catholic"....his words. Not only that since he's not my spiritual head anymore I'm not biblically his wife either... ::) :pazzo:
Oh yeah, it's convenient how writings become "spurious" when they're not in agreement with a fabricated reality.  ::)

I'm definitely not going to give marriage advice; someone else can comment on that.  As far as the rest...

You're arguing with someone who is being unreasonable.  You cannot use reason with someone who is unreasonable.  It doesn't work.  The most you can do is try to draw them back into reality and the use of reason.  It will be difficult.  He's found a convenient reason to make him the "authority".  If he gives up his fantasy, he gives up his upper hand, self-worth, etc.  It's clear he's being deliberately naive and imbibing all kinds of idiotic propaganda.  His mentor is not going to let his Svengali-like hold go easily if human nature is how I perceive it.  People like that want minions to re-affirm their own wacky ideas.  If the "mentor" sees him slipping, he is going to redouble his efforts.

If you want to deal with a person like this, more often than not the only way to succeed is trading one thing for another rather than hoping they wake up from their carefully constructed bubble once they realize they don't need it.  For example: when you are obedient to him, let him know you are doing it because of Church teaching, not some Protestant self-reading of Scripture.  If he feels less personally threatened by reality, he may not hold onto delusion so dearly.

This sounds more like a psychological gambit than logic and reason.  People delude themselves for a reason, usually because they are afraid of reality.  Maybe he's afraid (at least subconsciously) of people thinking that he's not bright, or his wife will leave him, or whatever.  Maybe he is lonely and doesn't want to lose his "friend" the "mentor" or lose the "mentor's" approval. None of that is probably true (except losing the mentor, and good riddance).  Your DH is probably awfully bright and probably you would stay with him even without some reasons conjured up by his "mentor".  But our own versions of ourselves often don't coincide with reality.

You know him better than anyone.  You should ask yourself:  why is he grasping at straws to hold onto this so obvious bullcrap so dearly?  Then, go from there.
(01-04-2011, 05:58 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]Oh yeah, it's convenient how writings become "spurious" when they're not in agreement with a fabricated reality.   ::)

I'm definitely not going to give marriage advice; someone else can comment on that.  As far as the rest...

You're arguing with someone who is being unreasonable.  You cannot use reason with someone who is unreasonable.  It doesn't work.  The most you can do is try to draw them back into reality and the use of reason.  It will be difficult.  He's found a convenient reason to make him the "authority".  If he gives up his fantasy, he gives up his upper hand, self-worth, etc.  It's clear he's being deliberately naive and imbibing all kinds of idiotic propaganda.  His mentor is not going to let his Svengali-like hold go easily if human nature is how I perceive it.  People like that want minions to re-affirm their own wacky ideas.  If the "mentor" sees him slipping, he is going to redouble his efforts.

If you want to deal with a person like this, more often than not the only way to succeed is trading one thing for another rather than hoping they wake up from their carefully constructed bubble once they realize they don't need it.  For example: when you are obedient to him, let him know you are doing it because of Church teaching, not some Protestant self-reading of Scripture.  If he feels less personally threatened by reality, he may not hold onto delusion so dearly.

This sounds more like a psychological gambit than logic and reason.  People delude themselves for a reason, usually because they are afraid of reality.  Maybe he's afraid (at least subconsciously) of people thinking that he's not bright, or his wife will leave him, or whatever.  Maybe he is lonely and doesn't want to lose his "friend" the "mentor" or lose the "mentor's" approval. None of that is probably true (except losing the mentor, and good riddance).  Your DH is probably awfully bright and probably you would stay with him even without some reasons conjured up by his "mentor".  But our own versions of ourselves often don't coincide with reality.

You know him better than anyone.  You should ask yourself:  why is he grasping at straws to hold onto this so obvious bullcrap so dearly?  Then, go from there.


Thank you for the advice. I think he and his mentor have something in common, from what I can gather basically they don't want any authority but themselves. My husband has aspirations about becoming an Anglican priest so he can preach/teach what he wants. His mentor claims he's not interested in "leading others" but his ego and actions says otherwise. He had his own little "mission church" in his garage that he was the layreader in seminary training for the Anglican denomination we are part of, then his wife cheated on him and dumped him. Both he and my husband go to church to take communion but aren't interested in otherwise being under anyone's authority. Like I said "it's the best we can do since the church is totally messed up"-their opinion.

Until they get sick of being Lord and Pope they won't change in my opinion. I think my husband's masculinity is threatened because he doesn't want me taking theological advice or teaching from anyone but him because everyone else is wrong. I've told him that I respect him BUT it's VERY ARROGANT to think you know better than the church (the RCC). I told him he's really just Pope -----  (his name). Afterall everyone is infallible except the Pope.  ::) (in protty circles at least). He says I just can't stand to be a part of something small that I need the big group mentality ie I have a lust for power......ironic isn't it?!  :o Even though the Early Church was a big group not some little this or that (those were the heretics)
As Quis said, it's useless to argue with someone unreasonable. You should ask God for patience and try to convert your husband by your virtuous example of meekness, charity and steadfastness in the faith. However, when and if he becomes more open to hear the Church, I can give you these two following links for you to share with him:

Protestant Errors: This site is very good since it deals with the root of the problem - lack of authority -  in a systematical way.
Scripture Catholic: Abundant scriptural and patristic evidence for the teachings of the Church.

Having said that, you should talk to a traditional priest about your process of conversion. I'm not sure how much longer you can postpone that decision without incurring into sin. Of all concerns in this life, your soul comes first.
I'm so sorry for your situation and will mention you in my prayers; no one should treat their spouse that way. I don't suppose it would be worthwhile to point out that he's not exactly loving you "as Christ loved the Church"? Since we're going with "early church sources" and all.
As far as arguing with him, I  echo what Quis said: he's not using reason, so arguments will be fruitless. But you don't have to agree with him when you think he's wrong.
I'm probably an evil person for suggesting this, but next time he won't even look at facts right in front of him, talk about what a lovely shade of green the sky is today. That the wharbagarbagons that live under the stairs are making your life difficult. How much you enjoy life as a pink elephant.  Hey, as long as he's not prepared to accept reality but makes up his own, you can play that game too.  :crazy:
(01-04-2011, 06:58 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]As Quis said, it's useless to argue with someone unreasonable. You should ask God for patience and try to convert your husband by your virtuous example of meekness, charity and steadfastness in the faith. However, when and if he becomes more open to hear the Church, I can give you these two following links for you to share with him:

Protestant Errors: This site is very good since it deals with the root of the problem - lack of authority -  in a systematical way.
Scripture Catholic: Abundant scriptural and patristic evidence for the teachings of the Church.

Having said that, you should talk to a traditional priest about your process of conversion. I'm not sure how much longer you can postpone that decision without incurring into sin. Of all concerns in this life, your soul comes first.

He knows I will convert eventually, I'm just biding my time as to when. When he stops yelling and screaming about the papacy and the church that'll prolly be when it'll happen. I can handle the animosity just not the out and out yelling in front of the kids about it. It might take till they are teens hopefully sooner. Thank you sooooo much for the links the protestant errors looks awesome on the main page he fits at least 4 of the tops links "for those protestants that say...". I will definately check it out.

tradmom
(01-04-2011, 07:26 PM)traditionalmom Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-04-2011, 06:58 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]As Quis said, it's useless to argue with someone unreasonable. You should ask God for patience and try to convert your husband by your virtuous example of meekness, charity and steadfastness in the faith. However, when and if he becomes more open to hear the Church, I can give you these two following links for you to share with him:

Protestant Errors: This site is very good since it deals with the root of the problem - lack of authority -  in a systematical way.
Scripture Catholic: Abundant scriptural and patristic evidence for the teachings of the Church.

Having said that, you should talk to a traditional priest about your process of conversion. I'm not sure how much longer you can postpone that decision without incurring into sin. Of all concerns in this life, your soul comes first.

He knows I will convert eventually, I'm just biding my time as to when. When he stops yelling and screaming about the papacy and the church that'll prolly be when it'll happen. I can handle the animosity just not the out and out yelling in front of the kids about it. It might take till they are teens hopefully sooner. Thank you sooooo much for the links the protestant errors looks awesome on the main page he fits at least 4 of the tops links "for those protestants that say...". I will definately check it out.

The sites are very good, they have lots of useful information. However, don't opt for an "all in your face" approach. Take it gently with him and let the grace of God work. First and foremost, you must be an example of a virtuous Christian wife. May you be an instrument in God's hands!

Also, I should strongly advise you again to talk to a traditional priest about your situation. You should enter the Church as soon as possible, even if you should hide it from your husband for now as a matter of prudence (to avoid divorce). You never know the future and how much longer will God permit you to live. Remember Our Lord's words: "Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour." (Matt. 25:13)

Even Vatican II re-affirmed that: "Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." (Lumen Gentium, ch. II, 14)
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11