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In Bishop Fellay's recent interview, he mentions how the doctrinal discussions have not been a complete success; such success being defined in terms of converting the Roman theologians to the position of the Society.

Since the SSPX has made it clear that doctrinal clarity is necessary prior to canonical regularisation, does this mean it's basically not going to happen (at least, in the foreseeable future, as far as we can see the circumstances now)?
It's so ridiculous that these unbelievable liberals are okayed in the church and the SSPX is "irregular". I guess the SSPX is very aggressive in wanting the church to return to such traditional values and Rome just ain't convinced. In other words, if +B16 said "okay fine, the SSPX is regular but leave us alone and we'll leave you alone" this wouldn't be enough for the SSPX. Does anyone know what the SSPX's "demands" are exactly? I mean, concretely. "Doctrinal clarity" seems rather vague to me. I mean, what would Rome have to say for the SSPX to accept a regularization?
The whole notion of regularization has become vague through the neologism of "partial" and "full" communion, as the recent Remnant article pointed out.

What it really seems to come down to is the jurisdiction of local ordinaries.  If the SSPX needs to be in the good graces of Bishops to operate, it will have to simply pack up its bags and quit existing. 

Here is an interesting scenario.  Suppose a friendly Bishop contacted the local SSPX and said: "Come to the Cathedral on such-and-such a date and assist me in offering a Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as a sign of unity and your filial devotion to the local See.  I will then declare you regularized within the diocese of such-a-city and priests and faithful of the diocese may associate with your ministries without any fear of reprisal or censure."

Wouldn't the SSPX be regular then, at least in that diocese, if the Bishop approved them?  Would it be possible for the SSPX to refuse what is prima facie a good and lawful command (come offer pontifical high mass with the Bishop)?

Just for the sake of discussion here.
(02-22-2011, 10:25 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: [ -> ]Here is an interesting scenario.  Suppose a friendly Bishop contacted the local SSPX and said: "Come to the Cathedral on such-and-such a date and assist me in offering a Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as a sign of unity and your filial devotion to the local See.  I will then declare you regularized within the diocese of such-a-city and priests and faithful of the diocese may associate with your ministries without any fear of reprisal or censure."

I've thought about this too.  I'm not sure.  I think he could give the individual priests jurisdiction in his diocese, but I don't think the society itself would be "regularized."  A bishop can give what is now called an "association of the faithful" official status in his diocese, but this is generally done after a period of time and consultation with Rome.  (Incidentally, Archbishop Lefebvre originally tried to skip this step entirely and went straight to the Vatican.)  In any case, I seriously doubt a bishop now would be willing to do this even if he were a traditionalist if the pope were not supportive of it.  And I don't think this is what the SSPX wants either, and never did.  They want the issue resolved from the top, and they will continue to go it alone until that happens.
(02-22-2011, 11:08 AM)cgraye Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-22-2011, 10:25 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: [ -> ]Here is an interesting scenario.  Suppose a friendly Bishop contacted the local SSPX and said: "Come to the Cathedral on such-and-such a date and assist me in offering a Pontifical Solemn High Mass, as a sign of unity and your filial devotion to the local See.  I will then declare you regularized within the diocese of such-a-city and priests and faithful of the diocese may associate with your ministries without any fear of reprisal or censure."

I've thought about this too.  I'm not sure.  I think he could give the individual priests jurisdiction in his diocese, but I don't think the society itself would be "regularized."  A bishop can give what is now called an "association of the faithful" official status in his diocese, but this is generally done after a period of time and consultation with Rome.  (Incidentally, Archbishop Lefebvre originally tried to skip this step entirely and went straight to the Vatican.)  In any case, I seriously doubt a bishop now would be willing to do this even if he were a traditionalist if the pope were not supportive of it.  And I don't think this is what the SSPX wants either, and never did.  They want the issue resolved from the top, and they will continue to go it alone until that happens.

Was not the SSPX originally diocesan right?

I don't think this Pope would be against a local ordinary working with the SSPX.  I could be wrong, but I thought one of the reasons the SSPX is looking to go straight to the top is that the Bishops are almost universally hostile.  In turn, the Pope's hesitancy in dealing with the Society probably reflects, in part, the pressure of Bishops on the Pope who do not want the Society operating freely within their dioceses.
(02-22-2011, 11:23 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: [ -> ]Was not the SSPX originally diocesan right?

Originally, François Charrière, Bishop of Lausanne, Geneva and Fribourg, established the Society of St. Pius X as what was then called a "pia unio."  This was to be on a provisional basis for six years.  That was the first stage.  The second stage would have been official status at the diocesan level, though as I said, Archbishop Lefebvre tried to skip this step and get official status from Rome.

Quote:I don't think this Pope would be against a local ordinary working with the SSPX.  I could be wrong, but I thought one of the reasons the SSPX is looking to go straight to the top is that the Bishops are almost universally hostile.  In turn, the Pope's hesitancy in dealing with the Society probably reflects, in part, the pressure of Bishops on the Pope who do not want the Society operating freely within their dioceses.

Perhaps.  I think it's true that the SSPX wants freedom to operate everywhere without potential interference from the diocesan bishops.  I also think it's true that most bishops do not want the SSPX exercising a free hand in their dioceses.  I think the pope has a somewhat bigger picture in mind.  I think his primary concern is not causing any further ruptures in the Church and healing the ones that do exist.  Giving the SSPX that free hand, even in a single diocese, could set a very bad precedent, because then it looks like you can consecrate bishops contrary to the commands of the pope, run a completely independent organization, and then be rewarded for it.  That could spark liberal schisms and all kinds of things that could wind up making things worse.  I don't know his mind, but I suspect the pope is thinking about all these things.
(02-22-2011, 07:57 AM)Lagrange Wrote: [ -> ]In Bishop Fellay's recent interview, he mentions how the doctrinal discussions have not been a complete success; such success being defined in terms of converting the Roman theologians to the position of the Society.

Since the SSPX has made it clear that doctrinal clarity is necessary prior to canonical regularisation, does this mean it's basically not going to happen (at least, in the foreseeable future, as far as we can see the circumstances now)?

For his part, Pope Benedict has made it clear that the SSPX will have no canonical mission until the problems are resolved.  Apparently the Pope does not agree that the Holy See has defected from the Faith and Tradition and in need of conversion.  So, I don't see any regularization on the horizon so long as the doctrinal disputes remain.
kcurries

The Holy Father did not say that the Society would not have any canonical standing if they didn't get together on their ideas, but rather when the discussions are over, which apparently is coming soon.

Pope Benedict XVI knew exactly what the Society believed from his time as Prefect of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, as Cardinal Ratzinger.
Which is exactly what the Society believes now and what the Church has always professed since Her inception.

Pope Benedict XVI knows that the FSSPX only profess what the Church always taught.
It seems as if he wanted to test them this past year just to see if they had filial respect for him.
Which they most definitely do.

I predict that the Society will be regularised soon.

Hey, if a Society like Fr Feeneys St Benedict Center can believe no Baptism of Blood and Desire [de fide] and be in full canonical regularity with the Church, why wouldn't a Society that believes everything that the Magisterium teaches not be as well?
sorry that is kqurries