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(03-19-2011, 11:23 PM)dymphna17 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-19-2011, 07:19 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: [ -> ]Since the concensus here is that those don't happen, did St. Joseph and St. John sin? What does one say about Our Lord's injunction that St. John is the greatest born of woman, but we give more honor to Ouur Lord's parents?

I think it has more to do with St. John's place in fulfilling the Old Covenant and bringing in the New.  St. Joseph is a close 2nd, if there is such a thing in heaven, but he wasn't part of the prophesies that had to be fulfilled like Our Lady and St. John.

But theologians (and the liturgy) have said that St. Joseph is the holiest saint after the Blessed Virgin and the angels...
(03-19-2011, 07:11 PM)aquinas138 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-19-2011, 07:04 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-19-2011, 06:19 PM)aquinas138 Wrote: [ -> ]I can think of no bar to believing that others might have been purified while still in the womb.

Those "purifications in the womb" must be exceptional, otherwise Baptism becomes irrelevant and with it, Christ.

Certainly.  I don't personally believe in any of them.

Not even St. John the Baptist's?
(03-20-2011, 11:55 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-19-2011, 11:23 PM)dymphna17 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-19-2011, 07:19 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: [ -> ]Since the concensus here is that those don't happen, did St. Joseph and St. John sin? What does one say about Our Lord's injunction that St. John is the greatest born of woman, but we give more honor to Ouur Lord's parents?

I think it has more to do with St. John's place in fulfilling the Old Covenant and bringing in the New.  St. Joseph is a close 2nd, if there is such a thing in heaven, but he wasn't part of the prophesies that had to be fulfilled like Our Lady and St. John.

But theologians (and the liturgy) have said that St. Joseph is the holiest saint after the Blessed Virgin and the angels...

Actually, St. John the Baptist is the greatest saint of the Church after our Lady and the holy angels. It's not for nothing that the Baptist is included before St. Joseph in the Litany of Saints. Recall also the words of our Lord: "Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist" (Matthew 11:11).
(03-20-2011, 12:17 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-20-2011, 11:55 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-19-2011, 11:23 PM)dymphna17 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-19-2011, 07:19 PM)randomtradguy Wrote: [ -> ]Since the concensus here is that those don't happen, did St. Joseph and St. John sin? What does one say about Our Lord's injunction that St. John is the greatest born of woman, but we give more honor to Ouur Lord's parents?

I think it has more to do with St. John's place in fulfilling the Old Covenant and bringing in the New.  St. Joseph is a close 2nd, if there is such a thing in heaven, but he wasn't part of the prophesies that had to be fulfilled like Our Lady and St. John.

But theologians (and the liturgy) have said that St. Joseph is the holiest saint after the Blessed Virgin and the angels...

Actually, St. John the Baptist is the greatest saint of the Church after our Lady and the holy angels. It's not for nothing that the Baptist is included before St. Joseph in the Litany of Saints. Recall also the words of our Lord: "Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist" (Matthew 11:11).

And Luke records, "Amongst those that are born of women, there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist" (7:28).  Matthew 11:9 informs us that He's speaking of prophets born of women.

Besides, if we took 'greater' to mean personal sanctity, then we'd be forced to reason:

1. St. John is the holiest born of a woman.
2. But the Blessed Virgin was also born of a woman.
3. Therefore, St. John is holier than the Blessed Virgin.

Our Lord was saying that St. John was the greatest among the prophets.
(03-20-2011, 12:46 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]And Luke records, "Amongst those that are born of women, there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist" (7:28).  Matthew 11:9 informs us that He's speaking of prophets born of women.

Besides, if we took 'greater' to mean personal sanctity, then we'd be forced to reason:

1. St. John is the holiest born of a woman.
2. But the Blessed Virgin was also born of a woman.
3. Therefore, St. John is holier than the Blessed Virgin.

Our Lord was saying that St. John was the greatest among the prophets.

Our Lady was not a prophet, so she's naturally absent from Luke's record.
Vetus,
I was using her as an example to show that, based on Our Lord's words, St. John need not be holier than St. Joseph, as Resurrexi contends.

Either later tonight or tomorrow I'll give what quotes I have regarding St. Joseph.
The choice of St. Joseph as the foster father of Jesus and the husband of Mary was ordained from all eternity in the Divine plan of salvation, as was the Blessed Virgin Mary to be the mother of the Son of God.  It was not by chance that St. Joseph won the hand of Mary in marriage.

Tradition has it that only St. John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb of his mother.  Perhaps St. Joseph too but this is not revealed.  

Baptism was not made obligatory before the Redemption was completed and we have no revelation of sanctification in the womb in the New Law.
St. Joseph, pray for us.

From the diary of Sr. Mildred (Mary Ephrem) Neuzil, the visionary of Our Lady of America, comes the following locution from St. Joseph:

“It is true, my daughter, that immediately after my conception, I was, through the future merits of Jesus and because of my exceptional role of future Virgin-Father, cleansed from the stain of original sin. I was from that moment confirmed in grace and never had the slightest stain on my soul. This is my unique privilege among men. My pure heart also was from the first moment of existence inflamed with love for God. Immediately, at the moment when my soul was cleansed from original sin, grace was infused into it in such abundance that, excluding my holy spouse, I surpassed the holiness of the highest angel in the angelic choir.

My heart suffered with the Hearts of Jesus and Mary. Mine was a silent suffering, for it was my special vocation to hide and shield, as long as God willed, the Virgin Mother and Son from the malice and hatred of men. The most painful of my sorrows was that I knew before hand of their passion, yet would not be there to console them. Their future suffering was ever present to me and became my daily cross. I became, in union with my holy spouse, co-redemptor of the human race. Through compassion for the sufferings of Jesus and Mary I co-operated, as no other, in the salvation of the world.”

Sister Mildred (Mary Ephrem) Neuzil, Diary, OUR LADY OF AMERICA©, Fostoria, Ohio, Pg. 13.)
http://www.ourladyofamerica.com/whatsnew...ongMen.pdf
"Next to Mary, St. Joseph deserves the highest veneration, for he was more intimately bound up with the mystery of the Incarnation of God's own Son than any other saint or any angel. ... Joseph's personal holiness is greater than that of any saint" (Fr. Matthias Premm, Dogmatic Theology for the Laity, p. 202f.).

"His dignity, the greatest after that of the divine maternity, arises from the fact that he was in charge of the Holy Family, that he was the spouse of Mary, and Jesus' foster father through love and paternal authority.  His holiness -- Because of his divine office he received from God a plentitude of grace which was superior to the graces given to the other saints; in this manner he is inferior only to the Blessed Virgin" (Very Rev. Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, vol. II, n. 845 A-B, p. 111).

I'll be editing this post in a little while.  Herve actually discusses whether St. Joseph was preserved from original sin or sanctified in the womb.  He also discusses his sanctity after birth (It's in Latin so I'll need to put it through Google Translate).  :)

Canon J.M. Hervé Wrote:St. Joseph peccatum originale contraxit, quia immaculate conceptio soli Mariæ concessa est, singulari omnipotentis Dei gratia et privilegio. – Fueritne autem in utero matris sanctificatus? Controvertitur inter theologos. Sententia vero negativa nobis præferenda videtur. Etenim hujusmodi privilegia gratiæ, aliquibus concessa praeter legem communem, ordinantur ad ultilitatem aliorum; nulla autem utilitas proveniret ex sanctificatione S. Joseph in utero, nissi Ecclesiæ innotesceret. Atqui nil Scriptura aut in Traditione reperiri videtur quod huic privilegio præbeat firmum ac stabile fundamentum. Ergo.

Non fuit impeccabilis, nec immunis a fomite concupiscentiæ; at, saltem a tempore matrimonii cum B. Virgine confirmatus fuit in gratia: tunc enim temporis vere incipiebat ejus missio divina. Abhinc autem habueritne fomitem ligatem ita ne venialiter quidem defecerit? Non videtur absolute concedendum; sed eum venialia plene deliberate, in material castitatis, vitasse a multis conceditur.
-- Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae, vol. II, n. 677, p. 651f.

Google Translate:

"St. Joseph had contracted original sin, because the only Immaculate Conception of Mary was given, the singular grace of almighty God and the privilege of. - But he be sanctified in the womb of mother 's? There is a controversy among the theologians. The sentence, however negative it seems to be preferred before us. In truth, the privileges of this kind of grace, granted to some outside the ordinary course, are directed to ultilitatem of others; for the profit there is no sanctification of the proceed from the S. To Joseph in the womb, was made known to the Church selected a rough. And yet, nothing to Scripture or to be found In the tradition of it would seem that ye may attend upon the privilege of this firm as well as a stable foundation.

"There was not incapable of sin, nor be exempt from the kindling of lust, but that at least from the time of marriage with a B. Was confirmed to the Virgin in the grace of, for then the time truly at the point of his mission of the divine. Ago, but he had the food of the bound so that they not be faint, indeed, a venial sin? It does not seem to be absolutely conceded, but fully a deliberate venial him, in the material of chastity, but to avoid the is granted by many."

My translation:  St. Joseph contracted original sin, and probably wasn't sanctified while still in the womb.  He wasn't given the gift of impeccability, nor exempt from concupiscence.  He was confirmed in grace from the time of his marriage, and there is good reason (although not absolutely conceded by all) to hold that he was free from deliberate venial sin (especially with regard to chastity).
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