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This post http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/03/quaeritur...ic-church/


Quote:Once a Catholic, always a Catholic is not just cultural, or emotional… it is juridical.    Baptism to death, friends.
...

Merely walking away or attending a non-Catholic Church does not qualify as a formal defection. That makes one a “lapsed Catholic”.

over at WDTPRS has me wondering... When does one "become" Catholic? When baptized in a Trinitarian formula? In a Catholic Church? First Communion?  Confirmation?

For example, I was baptized in the early 70s but didn't continue in the sacraments for years, only went to Mass with friends and maybe on Christmas. I never thought of myself as any "denomination" whatsoever, though I thought of my family as Catholic and couldn't bring myself to become a member of a Protestant church. My mom was like a one-woman ecumenism committee, she sent me to the Lutheran VBS and the Wednesday night Baptist Awana, but still considered us Catholic, I guess. This is such a common occurrence now, are all of us that were brought up like this considered Catholic? On the other hand, my husband's pastor calls me a convert...I never thought it mattered much, but apparently there's a formula... Confusing...


Are you Catholic when you are baptized?

edited to fix all my iPad induced errors!
(03-22-2011, 06:40 PM)ResiduumRevertetur Wrote: [ -> ]Are you Catholic when you are baptized?

Yep!

(03-22-2011, 06:45 PM)AndreasAngelopolitanus Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-22-2011, 06:40 PM)ResiduumRevertetur Wrote: [ -> ]Are you Catholic when you are baptized?

Yep!
That was easy. :laughing:
Baptism - besides cleansing your soul from all sin - incorporates you into the mystical body of Christ, that is, the Holy Church. It also leaves an indelible mark on your soul, which is why you can't be re-baptized (only conditionally).

As for defection from the faith, certain serious sins such as heresy, schism and apostasy sever you spiritually from the communion of the Church - you become excommunicated - but you never lose all your ties with her because baptism never goes away. It's irreformable. The Chuch still exercises lawfully her jurisdiction over you even when you've lapsed. Coincidentally, this was one of the reasons why the various inquisitions in times past could rightfully punish heretics, people who were spiritually severed from the Church in virtue of their sins against faith.

As for your personal situation during those fallen away years, I'd venture to say that you were likely guilty of some heresy at least, besides leading a life of sin. You were a reprobate and an enemy of God but the indelible mark of baptism in your soul perpetually linked you to the Church, similar to the prodigal son that could come back to his father's house when he repented. Even during the years of decadence, he never ceased being his son.
(03-22-2011, 06:57 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Baptism - besides cleansing your soul from all sin - incorporates you into the mystical body of Christ, that is, the Holy Church. It also leaves an indelible mark on your soul, which is why you can't be re-baptized (only conditionally).

As for defection from the faith, certain serious sins such as heresy, schism and apostasy sever you spiritually from the communion of the Church - you become excommunicated - but you never lose all your ties with her because baptism never goes away. It's irreformable. The Chuch still exercises lawfully her jurisdiction over you even when you've lapsed. Coincidentally, this was one of the reasons why the various inquisitions in times past could rightfully punish heretics, people who were spiritually severed from the Church in virtue of their sins against faith.

As for your personal situation during those fallen away years, I'd venture to say that you were likely guilty of some heresy at least, besides leading a life of sin. You were a reprobate and an enemy of God but the indelible mark of baptism in your soul perpetually linked you to the Church, similar to the prodigal son that could come back to his father's house when he repented. Even during the years of decadence, he never ceased being his son.

This is also why we can't secretly baptize a child who you don't know will be raised in the Faith.  It kills me that my nieces aren't baptized, but as Father told us, it wouldn't be fair to them since they would be judged as Catholics upon their death.  If they weren't raised as Catholics it wouldn't be right for us to put that burden upon them.
(03-22-2011, 08:15 PM)dymphna17 Wrote: [ -> ]This is also why we can't secretly baptize a child who you don't know will be raised in the Faith.  It kills me that my nieces aren't baptized, but as Father told us, it wouldn't be fair to them since they would be judged as Catholics upon their death.  If they weren't raised as Catholics it wouldn't be right for us to put that burden upon them.

It's also contrary to natural justice to baptize a child against the will of his parents, just like it's wrong to baptize an adult against his will..
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article10
(03-22-2011, 08:19 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-22-2011, 08:15 PM)dymphna17 Wrote: [ -> ]This is also why we can't secretly baptize a child who you don't know will be raised in the Faith.  It kills me that my nieces aren't baptized, but as Father told us, it wouldn't be fair to them since they would be judged as Catholics upon their death.  If they weren't raised as Catholics it wouldn't be right for us to put that burden upon them.

It's also contrary to natural justice to baptize a child against the will of his parents, just like it's wrong to baptize an adult against his will..
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article10

So this wasn't a valid baptism?


"Hey, Fadder, who you calling a convert?"

"Don't you know Baptism makes a Catholic?"  :fish:



If a person is baptized against their will, I think it is still a valid baptism. If a child baptizes another child, such as in play, then it is valid. See the following thread on AngelQueen: http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8304
(03-23-2011, 01:56 AM)MichaelNZ Wrote: [ -> ]If a person is baptized against their will, I think it is still a valid baptism. If a child baptizes another child, such as in play, then it is valid. See the following thread on AngelQueen: http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8304
Before I look at the thread, the dominant theological opinion if the baptism is "just in play" is that there is no baptism since it lacks the requisite intent. Such is particularly the case if there were a performance of a baptism in a play or movie. You are right that the consent of the recipient or the recipient's parents of the sacrament does not affect the validity, but the previous poster is correct that baptism lacking that consent is gravely contrary to the natural law.
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