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This is something I've heard spoken about a lot about but, so far, my encounters with it have been pretty minimal. Why are some traditional Catholics opposed to what they term "wordliness". What qualifies as worldy? Any form of entertainment unrelated to Catholicism? I have in mind:

*A dislike of modern music.
*Avoiding companionship with non-Catholics
*Judging women who wear make up or pants
*Not watching any television (I believe the SSPX's third order rule requires this)
*Severe moderation with alcohol

I'm sure the list will get longer as I delve deeper into trad-dom  LOL

What are your thoughts on this issue?
I don't think it makes sense to call those Catholics opposed to modern music, association with non-Catholics, women in pants, TV, and getting tipsy Puritan. I mean, it's not like they're English Calvinists.
(04-03-2011, 10:43 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think it makes sense to call those Catholics opposed to modern music, association with non-Catholics, women in pants, TV, and getting tipsy Puritan. I mean, it's not like they're English Calvinists.

I am using the word as an adjective not a noun.

adjective
• ( puritan) having or displaying censorious and strict moral beliefs, esp. about pleasure, entertainment and sex.
What many pejoratively call "Puritans" are actual Catholics trying to live up to the Evangelical counsels: "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

The Christian man is fundamentally opposed to the world. He lives in it but is not of it. The more he grows in holiness, the less worldly he becomes. Think about your life: if you walk like the world, talk like the world, act like the world, dress like the world, like what the world likes, listen to what the world listens, watch what the world watches, etc., then you are not walking the strait path "that leadeth to life." (Matthew 7:14) Indeed, our Lords adds: "few there are that find it!" Are you one of those few? These are hard questions that we must ask ourselves everday.

Galatians 5:22-23 Wrote:"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
(04-03-2011, 11:01 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]What many pejoratively call "Puritans" are actual Catholics trying to live up to the Evangelical counsels: "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

The Christian man is fundamentally opposed to the world. He lives in it but is not of it. The more he grows in holiness, the less worldly he becomes. Think about your life: if you walk like the world, talk like the world, act like the world, dress like the world, like what the world likes, listen to what the world listens, watch what the world watches, etc., then you are not walking the strait path "that leadeth to life." (Matthew 7:14) Indeed, our Lords adds: "few there are that find it!" Are you one of those few? These are hard questions that we must ask ourselves everday.

Galatians 5:22-23 Wrote:"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Again, what qualifies as worldly? Something opposed to Catholic principles (lust or avarice for example) or anything unrelated to religion?
The Puritans are surely the final boss of the internet.
(04-03-2011, 11:03 AM)Aragon Wrote: [ -> ]Again, what qualifies as worldly? Something opposed to Catholic principles (lust or avarice for example) or anything unrelated to religion?

"Worldly" are those things mudane, opposed to the spirit and the spiritual life.

While there some neutral things in this life that are unrelated to religion, most aren't. We know by faith that what the world does and loves (in every cultural and social respect) is many a time opposed to God and to the pursuit of holiness. Our goal in this life is to be holy, to shine forth the glory of the Lord in all our works.

Discounting the fact that we are all weak and miserable sinners that come short of the glory of God, we are nevertheless called to this perfection, whether we're lay or religious. We know that the path is strait that leadeth to life and few there are that find it!

Everyone's conscience is its own judge: as a believer you should be a new creature in Christ. If you come to the conclusion that you are really no different from the rest of the world, apart from the fact that you fulfill your minimal religious obligations, then you know that you're falling short of your calling.
The ideal is to pursue Truth and the Beauty derived from these pursuits. There is neither Truth not Beauty if one is to follow the world. If you had asked me 5 years ago would I rather listen to Van Halen or Vivaldi, I would have said "Rock on, Eddie!" Now, my desires are for peace and holiness, which the Italian priest, one of many composers, offers. So no Lady Gaga in this house. As far as TV, I like some cooking and reality shows on Discovery, so no Modern Family in this house. My ladies only wear jeans when work is to be done. No nylon slacks in this house.  ;D
(04-03-2011, 10:39 AM)Aragon Wrote: [ -> ]This is something I've heard spoken about a lot about but, so far, my encounters with it have been pretty minimal. Why are some traditional Catholics opposed to what they term "wordliness". What qualifies as worldy? Any form of entertainment unrelated to Catholicism? I have in mind:

*A dislike of modern music.
*Avoiding companionship with non-Catholics
*Judging women who wear make up or pants
*Not watching any television (I believe the SSPX's third order rule requires this)
*Severe moderation with alcohol

I'm sure the list will get longer as I delve deeper into trad-dom  LOL

What are your thoughts on this issue?

I always think there is a certain irony to these online discussions of wordliness, namely, if we were completely other-worldly, I suspect we wouldn't be sitting at our keyboards writing about the evils of the world and not watching TV.  Does the SSPX third order forbid using the internet?

All of these things certainly can be an occasion for sin though.  I think it would be hard for anyone to deny that.  If people do give up TV completely or other such things, being motivated by divine charity, such is quite laudable.
A dislike of modern music

I don't think thats puritanical.  It certainly can be.  What would be puritanical would be a visceral rejection to modern music based on it being modern music, not based on its merit as music itself.  I listen to a fair amount of it but I prefer David Bowie and Bob Dylan.

Avoiding companionship with non-Catholics

This one is kind of tricky.  One can avoid all kinds of sin by chosing their companions carefully.  I think it can be puritanical and even sinful as if one uses this tactic to the extreme degree it can be very uncharitable.  Any alcoholic with brains isn't going to make friends with a group of bar-hoppers and as catholics we should also be mindful of our company.  But we should be charitable as well.  If  the reasoning behind the avoidance is "they're not catholic, I won't spend time with them" then its likely puritanical.  But if its "they spend their time (insert occasion of sin here) so I should be wary" then its nothing more than spiritual vigilance which is a virtue, not a vice.


Judging women who wear make up or pants

We shouldn't judge at all.  It may not be puritanical but its certainly (likely sinful) pride. 

Not watching any television (I believe the SSPX's third order rule requires this)

Truthfully not watching TV is a great way to grow in holiness because thats X amount of time you're praying as opposed to watching TV.  But TV isn't inherently sinful and what would be puritanical (and or sinful pride) would be telling people they are sinning/going to hell/lacking virtue based on the fact that they watch tv.


Severe moderation with alcohol

Like none at all?  I mean moderation is always to be used with alcohol, I don't know what severe means.  I think this, like all others only really falls into puritanical if the reasoning behind it is because they believe any other approach would be dreadfully sinful and at that it may not be puritanical but rather scrupulous or sinful pride.  There are some people who just don't drink and it has nothing to do with it being a sin.

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