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(05-16-2011, 10:01 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, I agree. But how can divine and Catholic Faith be had by a person who is ignorant? Does GOd infuse grace against people's will? Obviously it must be a choice, but how can any ever choose when they do not know WHAT to choose?

Invincible ignorance neither saves nor damns a person (cf. Fr. Michael Müeller).  I've read that God gives such souls, who by actual grace uphold the law, the grace necessary to make an act of divine faith; they may then make an act of perfect contrition.  In doing this, the Lord saves these people in an extraordinary manner.

I've read in two or three places that God gives the inculpably ignorant unbelievers sufficient grace to attain salvation (through faith and charity).
(05-17-2011, 02:48 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-16-2011, 10:01 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, I agree. But how can divine and Catholic Faith be had by a person who is ignorant? Does GOd infuse grace against people's will? Obviously it must be a choice, but how can any ever choose when they do not know WHAT to choose?

Invincible ignorance neither saves nor damns a person (cf. Fr. Michael Müeller).  I've read that God gives such souls, who by actual grace uphold the law, the grace necessary to make an act of divine faith; they may then make an act of perfect contrition.  In doing this, the Lord saves these people in an extraordinary manner.

I've read in two or three places that God gives the inculpably ignorant unbelievers sufficient grace to attain salvation (through faith and charity).

Every soul on Earth has a chance of salvation.  Either through Holy Mother Catholic Church or through the Lord Himself.
So GOd plans things that do not come to pass? God DESIRES everyone to be saved, even if they actually are NOT?

How can God will that which he chooses not to accomplish? Namely the salvation of all? Augustine understood "all" to mean all types of people: THere is no person in any circumstance who could not potentially be saved. BUt not every person is given grace sufficient for salvation, because, obviously, not all are saved.

So, we need to understand, what does "all" mean and what does "sufficient" mean?

How can it be all when all are not offered the same grace?
How can that grace be sufficient if itcannot attain to its end? Salvation?
God desires salvation for every single human being.  However, He also desires Free Will.  And He is Just.  Why some are saved and others are not is impossible to know.  That is also from St. Augustine.
(05-18-2011, 07:42 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]So GOd plans things that do not come to pass? God DESIRES everyone to be saved, even if they actually are NOT?

How can God will that which he chooses not to accomplish? Namely the salvation of all? Augustine understood "all" to mean all types of people: THere is no person in any circumstance who could not potentially be saved. BUt not every person is given grace sufficient for salvation, because, obviously, not all are saved.

So, we need to understand, what does "all" mean and what does "sufficient" mean?

How can it be all when all are not offered the same grace?
How can that grace be sufficient if itcannot attain to its end? Salvation?

God does not interfere with our free will, God has sufficient grace waiting for every man in the world, would he but take it! Were God to see that he would take it were it offered to him, it would be given.


I think a man can reject grace not only BEFORE it is given, but also afterwards.  He can cooperate with grace for a while and then turn away.  Even sanctifying grace can reside in a soul for a time, and then be lost by mortal sin.  Actual sin can be given to a man to help him turn to God, and he may sometimes accept it - it is only given to help men's actions as they are performed.  All men receive actual grace sufficient to turn to God and to be saved but if they turn away (eg by refusing the Church), they are not saved.  Grace isn't a 'if-you-have-it-once-you are saved' thing.  You have to die in the state of sanctifying grace. 

God doesn't play "I won't give it to you because you wouldn't use it" games with us.  He gives,  and then we accept or reject.  We can only accept if He helps, but He ALLOWS some to reject the sufficient grace He gives. Water is sufficient to quench thirst, but if one spits it out it cannot.
(05-20-2011, 10:28 PM)Doce Me Wrote: [ -> ]I think a man can reject grace not only BEFORE it is given, but also afterwards.  He can cooperate with grace for a while and then turn away.  Even sanctifying grace can reside in a soul for a time, and then be lost by mortal sin.  Actual sin can be given to a man to help him turn to God, and he may sometimes accept it - it is only given to help men's actions as they are performed.  All men receive actual grace sufficient to turn to God and to be saved but if they turn away (eg by refusing the Church), they are not saved.  Grace isn't a 'if-you-have-it-once-you are saved' thing.  You have to die in the state of sanctifying grace. 

God doesn't play "I won't give it to you because you wouldn't use it" games with us.   He gives,  and then we accept or reject.  We can only accept if He helps, but He ALLOWS some to reject the sufficient grace He gives. Water is sufficient to quench thirst, but if one spits it out it cannot.

I like this.
Augustine taught grace is intrinsically efficacious: It always attains its end because it is efficacious and it can physically move the will without compromising human freedom, so all the good we do is the work of God in us. Catholics are allowed to hold to this view.

But God clearly does not will to give intrinsically efficacious grace, which is the grace that makes "sufficient" grace active, to everybody. On what grounds can we therefore assume we wants to save all when he does not give the grace NECESSARY to be saved to everyone? He definitely does not discriminate who COULD come to him, but his sovereignty extends also into the realm of whom he wills to be saved. The Scriptures are pretty clear that there are people that God creates as "vessels of destruction" to show forth his justice.
(05-22-2011, 03:18 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]Augustine taught grace is intrinsically efficacious: It always attains its end because it is efficacious and it can physically move the will without compromising human freedom, so all the good we do is the work of God in us. Catholics are allowed to hold to this view.

But God clearly does not will to give intrinsically efficacious grace, which is the grace that makes "sufficient" grace active, to everybody. On what grounds can we therefore assume we wants to save all when he does not give the grace NECESSARY to be saved to everyone? He definitely does not discriminate who COULD come to him, but his sovereignty extends also into the realm of whom he wills to be saved. The Scriptures are pretty clear that there are people that God creates as "vessels of destruction" to show forth his justice.

God does not want all men that exist, will exist and ever existed to be saved. This is a common misconception.

St. Augustine nailed it when he explained "all" to be all kinds of men. In fact, the will of Almighty God cannot be frustrated otherwise He wouldn't be omnipotent and thus, wouldn't be God.

Quote:Accordingly, when we hear and read in scripture that he ‘will have all men to be saved,’ although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the scripture, ‘who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation he does not will, but that no man is saved apart from his will; and that, therefore, we should pray him to will our salvation, because if he will it, it must necessarily be accomplished. And it was of prayer to God that the apostle was speaking when he used this expression. And on the same principle we interpret the expression in the Gospel: ‘the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world:’ not that there is no man who is not enlightened, but that no man is enlightened except by him. Or, it is said, ‘who will have all men to be saved;’ not that there is no man whose salvation he does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that he was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, he said, would have repented if he had worked them?), but that we are to understand by ‘all men,’ the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances, – kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through his only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them? For the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever he may will. Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, ‘for kings, and for all that are in authority,’ who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, ‘for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour,’ that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, ‘who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.’ God, then, in his great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when he says to the Pharisees: ‘ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb.’ For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by ‘every herb,’ every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by ‘all men,’ every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if ‘he hath done all that he pleased in heaven and in earth,’ as the psalmist sings of him, he certainly did not will to do anything that he hath not done.’ - St. Augustine
St. Thomas does present St. Augustine's explanation (and does not deny it), but also has this to say:

"St. Thomas Aquinas  S.T. I Q19 A6 Wrote:...everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circumstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts. Nor do we will simply, what we will antecedently, but rather we will it in a qualified manner; for the will is directed to things as they are in themselves, and in themselves they exist under particular qualifications. Hence we will a thing simply inasmuch as we will it when all particular circumstances are considered; and this is what is meant by willing consequently. Thus it may be said that a just judge wills simply the hanging of a murderer, but in a qualified manner he would will him to live, to wit, inasmuch as he is a man. Such a qualified will may be called a willingness rather than an absolute will. Thus it is clear that whatever God simply wills takes place; although what He wills antecedently may not take place.

God antecedently wills NO sin to be committed, and so wills no man to go to hell.  He wills no evil.  That  He permits some is the mystery of good and evil, but it does not make God's power less.