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(05-22-2011, 03:18 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]....On what grounds can we therefore assume He wants to save all when he does not give the grace NECESSARY to be saved to everyone?...

God knows whether one will accept His graces or not before He even offers His graces. Were God to see that the person would take His graces were they offered to him, then they would be given.

Graces, IMO, can be thought of "God's Pearls" - Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you. Unless He is convinced that we want His Grace, He is not going give them to us. Those who are not saved it is because they would reject the graces were God to offer them. God will not cast His Pearls "before the swine".
(05-24-2011, 08:11 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-22-2011, 03:18 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]....On what grounds can we therefore assume He wants to save all when he does not give the grace NECESSARY to be saved to everyone?...

God knows whether one will accept His graces or not before He even offers His graces. Were God to see that the person would take His graces were they offered to him, then they would be given.

Graces, IMO, can be thought of "God's Pearls" - Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you. Unless He is convinced that we want His Grace, He is not going give them to us. Those who are not saved it is because they would reject the graces were God to offer them. God will not cast His Pearls "before the swine".

But it seems that his would turn how we would respond to grace into the actual cause of election rather than God's sovereign will. Grace would not be gratuitous but merited and we know this can't be the case.

Quote:“It is therefore settled that God's grace is not given according to the deserts of the recipients, but according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise and glory of His own grace; so that he who glorieth may by no means glory in himself, but in the Lord, who gives to those men to whom He will, because He is merciful, what if, however, He does not give, He is righteous: and He does not give to whom He will not, that He may make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy. For by giving to some what they do not deserve, He has certainly willed that His grace should be gratuitous, and thus genuine grace; by not giving to all, He has shown what all deserve. Good in His goodness to some, righteous in the punishment of others; both good in respect of all, because it is good when that which is due is rendered, and righteous in respect of all, since that which is not due is given without wrong to any one.” - St. Augustine
(05-24-2011, 11:01 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-24-2011, 08:11 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-22-2011, 03:18 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]....On what grounds can we therefore assume He wants to save all when he does not give the grace NECESSARY to be saved to everyone?...

God knows whether one will accept His graces or not before He even offers His graces. Were God to see that the person would take His graces were they offered to him, then they would be given.

Graces, IMO, can be thought of "God's Pearls" - Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you. Unless He is convinced that we want His Grace, He is not going give them to us. Those who are not saved it is because they would reject the graces were God to offer them. God will not cast His Pearls "before the swine".

But it seems that this would turn how we would respond to grace into the actual cause of election rather than God's sovereign will. Grace would not be gratuitous but merited and we know this can't be the case.

Quote:“It is therefore settled that God's grace is not given according to the deserts of the recipients, but according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise and glory of His own grace; so that he who glorieth may by no means glory in himself, but in the Lord, who gives to those men to whom He will, because He is merciful, what if, however, He does not give, He is righteous: and He does not give to whom He will not, that He may make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy. For by giving to some what they do not deserve, He has certainly willed that His grace should be gratuitous, and thus genuine grace; by not giving to all, He has shown what all deserve. Good in His goodness to some, righteous in the punishment of others; both good in respect of all, because it is good when that which is due is rendered, and righteous in respect of all, since that which is not due is given without wrong to any one.” - St. Augustine

Not sure if I am double talking myself into something here (I just got done reading a reply about how a table is simply another form of altar - that one makes my head spin more than usual for some reason) but I am still thinking that there is no contradiction with St. Augustine.

No one deserves grace - but because God wills it, He offers it to whomever He knows will accept it - same as God withholds it from whomever He knows would not accept it.  St. Augustine says that He does not give to whom He will not because God knows they would not accept it were it offered.

In this way, God is showing His Mercy by not allowing one to be judged for rejecting grace.

Does that make sense - what am I missing?
(05-24-2011, 02:01 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]No one deserves grace - but because God wills it, He offers it to whomever He knows will accept it - same as God withholds it from whomever He knows would not accept it.  St. Augustine says that He does not give to whom He will not because God knows they would not accept it were it offered.

In this way, God is showing His Mercy by not allowing one to be judged for rejecting grace.

Does that make sense - what am I missing?

God's will is uncaused. I think that is the main point.

By saying that God offers grace to whomever He knows will accept it, you're saying that God's will concerning grace and election has a cause: the acceptance or rejection of grace on our part. It's not gratuitous but merited in the sense that we receive grace because God already knew we would accept it. And vice-versa. In the end, it seems to me to be a rather circular reasoning.

God gives grace irrespective of our cooperation with it. It's a true unmerited gift that proceeds from His will that, like Him, has no cause.
I think what you are missing Stubborn is that God's ELECTION of SOME people to salvation is UNCONDITIONAL.

GOd saves who he wants saved BECAUSE he wants to. THere is no other motive besides his good pleasure. He doesn't look down a long tunnel to see what they WOULD do, because that implies he already gave them the grace to DO that in the first place! See what I mean?

God's election is PURELY in accordance to WHAT HE WANTS and totally separate from what he FORESEES us doing. This is the Doctrine of Unconditional election hel to by THomists and Augustinians, and taught until the rise of the Jesuit Order, with Molinas.

SO understand: God only saves those whom he wants saved. And he only wants to save THOSE particular people because it is his sovereign will. Now, in light of this, which is legitimate Catholic teaching, in what sense can we say God truly desires the particular salvation of every individual when he clearly and willfully does NOT give to EVERY individual the grace he needs to be saved?

Put another way: Can God WILL that which he does not do?
God's will is uncaused. I think that is the main point.
And
Can God WILL that which he does not do?

Both speak volumes to me. As does this, from My Imitation of Christ:

MY CHILD, my grace is precious. It does not allow itself to be mixed with external things or with earthly consolations. Cast away all obstacles to grace, therefore, if you wish to receive its infusion.

What about this?

Is this not a contradiction of St. Augustine or am I misinterpreting?

I am sure that I am coming across as such, but I am honestly not going out of my way to be obtuse.

Absolutely, We are to cooperate with God's grace: BUt WE CANNOT unless grace precedes us: so in the Final analysis our salvation, while immediately dependent on OUR response to the grace GOd offers, Is ultimately the work of God.

If We cannot respond to God's grace, unless he empowers us with grace, and he only chooses to empower some so they may respond, then we must say that our salvation is the work of GOd, and that it is our work, in as much as it is worked in Christ: Inasmuch as he moves our will and draws us by his truth so that we can make the choice FOR HIM.

No, actually, all that God does is unknown to us in the here and now: What we know is what we do. For this reason we are told to "make our calling and election sure."
Quote: and taught until the rise of the Jesuit Order, with Molinas

SOME Monlinists tried to explain why God predestined some to election.  Others, like St. Robert Bellarmine said that the reason God predestines some to election is due to His secret knowledge and we can not know.

Molinists say that God considers the response to grace when making His sovereign plan, for Him to know what kind of graces to send.  It is a more mechanistic view to show how free will and grace can coexist.  However, this does not explain WHY God chooses to save someone.

So a molinist would say God chose to have Frank born in a certain country because in that way, Frank would be saved.  So God chooses to have Frank born in Spain because He knows that in this way Frank will be raised Catholic and be saved.    It doesn't explain WHY God wants Frank to be saved.

And it is perfectly Catholic to be a molinist.
(05-25-2011, 08:26 PM)James02 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote: and taught until the rise of the Jesuit Order, with Molinas

SOME Monlinists tried to explain why God predestined some to election.  Others, like St. Robert Bellarmine said that the reason God predestines some to election is due to His secret knowledge and we can not know.

Molinists say that God considers the response to grace when making His sovereign plan, for Him to know what kind of graces to send.  It is a more mechanistic view to show how free will and grace can coexist.  However, this does not explain WHY God chooses to save someone.

So a molinist would say God chose to have Frank born in a certain country because in that way, Frank would be saved.  So God chooses to have Frank born in Spain because He knows that in this way Frank will be raised Catholic and be saved.    It doesn't explain WHY God wants Frank to be saved.

And it is perfectly Catholic to be a molinist.


The damned go to hell because they want to go to hell.

The saved go to heaven because they want to go to heaven.

God gives you whatever you want.

It's up to you where you want to go.
Actually the elect are saved because God wills them to be saved, and the damned are lost because GOd chooses not to save them on account of their sinfullness.  We do what we can, but all our good works come from GOd, so God is the ultimate beginning and end of our salvation.