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But in regards to to BOD being inside the ordinary magisterial documents: Where is it? I do not see it in the ordinary magisterial documents ANYwhere, and especially NOT in the Solemn extraordinary magisterium.

The CCC was PROMULGATED by the magisterium, but is not itself a magisterial documents, but rather a compilation and distillation of them. THis is clearly seen in light of the fact that the Catechism is SUBJECT to the magisterial teaching of the church. Obviously if it is subject to it, it cannot be it, in itself.

The idea that a Catechumen can have perfect faith and perfect charity without the remission of sins is an idea that is also condemned by the magisterium. i.e. That a Catechumen could have faith and charity before being born again. THere is no other remission of sins other than being born again, and there is no way to be born again except through baptism.

So we can think of the issue in two ways: Either

A. God seemingly is unwilling to enforce his requirements for salvation for those in "untenable" circumstances or the invincibly ignorant. Those who hold this view tend to say that God's power is not limited to the sacraments.Yet they err by somehow failing to acknowledge that he never works this way in scripture, and they imply that he IS bound by our physical limitations and circumstances.

B. God is not bound by the sacraments intrinsically, yet he is bound by them extrinsically, inasmuch as they are part of the covenant he has setup with man, and he does not revoke any part of his covenant. He has bound himself to them, and he does not change. God is not bound by space-time. When Cornelius was considered by God to be Just by his God-Fearing, God sent an angel to tell him to present himself to Peter. When the Ethiopian was Just because of his observance of the Jewish law, he sent Philip to proclaim the truth to him. After that, he whisked Philip away like a whirlwind "in the spirit" and sent him to another town! God gets the message across: He transcends the space-time continuum to bring the full message of salvation to those who he wills to receive it in THE WAY HE HAS ESTABLISHED.

Plus we must understand something FUNDAMENTAL: Before Justification, nothing, neither faith, nor works, in themselves MERIT the grace of Justification. Now what else is the desire to be baptized but an act of faith? But we are not thereby justified! The sole, and single instrumental cause of our justification, according to the Council of Trent, is Sacramental Water Baptism: There is no other way to be born again, and there is no other way to be saved than to be born again.

Where does the church teach otherwise in the ordinary and universal magisterium? Which document?
(05-27-2011, 08:18 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]But in regards to to BOD being inside the ordinary magisterial documents: Where is it? I do not see it in the ordinary magisterial documents ANYwhere, and especially NOT in the Solemn extraordinary magisterium.

The CCC was PROMULGATED by the magisterium, but is not itself a magisterial documents, but rather a compilation and distillation of them. THis is clearly seen in light of the fact that the Catechism is SUBJECT to the magisterial teaching of the church. Obviously if it is subject to it, it cannot be it, in itself.

The idea that a Catechumen can have perfect faith and perfect charity without the remission of sins is an idea that is also condemned by the magisterium. i.e. That a Catechumen could have faith and charity before being born again. THere is no other remission of sins other than being born again, and there is no way to be born again except through baptism.

So we can think of the issue in two ways: Either

A. God seemingly is unwilling to enforce his requirements for salvation for those in "untenable" circumstances or the invincibly ignorant. Those who hold this view tend to say that God's power is not limited to the sacraments.Yet they err by somehow failing to acknowledge that he never works this way in scripture, and they imply that he IS bound by our physical limitations and circumstances.

B. God is not bound by the sacraments intrinsically, yet he is bound by them extrinsically, inasmuch as they are part of the covenant he has setup with man, and he does not revoke any part of his covenant. He has bound himself to them, and he does not change. God is not bound by space-time. When Cornelius was considered by God to be Just by his God-Fearing, God sent an angel to tell him to present himself to Peter. When the Ethiopian was Just because of his observance of the Jewish law, he sent Philip to proclaim the truth to him. After that, he whisked Philip away like a whirlwind "in the spirit" and sent him to another town! God gets the message across: He transcends the space-time continuum to bring the full message of salvation to those who he wills to receive it in THE WAY HE HAS ESTABLISHED.

Plus we must understand something FUNDAMENTAL: Before Justification, nothing, neither faith, nor works, in themselves MERIT the grace of Justification. Now what else is the desire to be baptized but an act of faith? But we are not thereby justified! The sole, and single instrumental cause of our justification, according to the Council of Trent, is Sacramental Water Baptism: There is no other way to be born again, and there is no other way to be saved than to be born again.

Where does the church teach otherwise in the ordinary and universal magisterium? Which document?


With all due respect for what you are saying, God transcends everything.  He does what He wills. Period.
Not true. GOd is not arbitrary. He only does what he wills, but he only wills what is in accord with his nature. THe scriptures manifest God's nature, therefore they manifest how and what he wills. THey are sort of GOd's track record. And because GOd does not change, we can expect him to act in these or similar ways in the future.

God is not arbitrary. God does not contradict himself.

Also, NOTE:
<< 2 Corinthians 4 >>
Douay-Rheims Bible

1 Therefore, seeing we have this ministration, according as we have obtained mercy, we faint not; 2 But we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the word of God; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience, in the sight of God. 3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord; and ourselves your servants through Jesus. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ Jesus.

It is the reprobate whoa re ignorant, as a punishment for their sinfullness according to St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scriptures themselves.

If a person REALLY wanted God, God would grant them knowledge of the gospel. As it is, we must assume that those who do not hear of God are reprobate: It is not a question of "But they never had a chance!"

They never would have accepted had they heard, because their hearts were hardened. THerefore, GOd gave them up to their sinfullness and did not shine the light of the gospel upon them. DO not overly pity the invincibly ignorant; they would know if they really cared.
(05-27-2011, 08:47 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]Not true. GOd is not arbitrary. He only does what he wills, but he only wills what is in accord with his nature. THe scriptures manifest God's nature, therefore they manifest how and what he wills. THey are sort of GOd's track record. And because GOd does not change, we can expect him to act in these or similar ways in the future.

God is not arbitrary. God does not contradict himself.

Also, NOTE:
<< 2 Corinthians 4 >>
Douay-Rheims Bible

1 Therefore, seeing we have this ministration, according as we have obtained mercy, we faint not; 2 But we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the word of God; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience, in the sight of God. 3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord; and ourselves your servants through Jesus. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ Jesus.


It is the reprobate whoa re ignorant, as a punishment for their sinfullness according to St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scriptures themselves.

If a person REALLY wanted God, God would grant them knowledge of the gospel. As it is, we must assume that those who do not hear of God are reprobate: It is not a question of "But they never had a chance!"

They never would have accepted had they heard, because their hearts were hardened. THerefore, GOd gave them up to their sinfullness and did not shine the light of the gospel upon them. DO not overly pity the invincibly ignorant; they would know if they really cared.




God wants everybody to be with Him forever.  And, believe me, He will do whatever is necessary on His part to bring that about. Only those who consciously and voluntarily reject him will be damned.

How does he want everybody to be with him forever when not everybody will?

How does he will Every single individual to be saved when he does not give the necessary grace to every single individual?

Can God fail to accomplish what he wills?

Does God will what he does not do?
(05-27-2011, 10:24 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]How does he want everybody to be with him forever when not everybody will?

How does he will Every single individual to be saved when he does not give the necessary grace to every single individual?

Can God fail to accomplish what he wills?

Does God will what he does not do?

You know this:  the Bible does say in at least one place that God wishes all to be saved (Timothy 2:4 "[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")  God antecedently wills each men to not die in mortal sin, and so to be saved, but He PERMITS the evil that is against His will, taken in the usual sense.

The problem is God's permission of evil.  Evil is the privation of good.  God permits evil.  God antecedently DOES WILL ALL THE GOOD that should be there, not the evil! Yet the good is not done! -  rather the evil is permitted.  There is a MYSTERY here - how can God allow free will and permit evil at all?  But we know He does. 

It is important to realize that words such as "will" can have different senses, both in common usage and in theology (I am no theologian but I know this much).  Here is where St. Thomas speaks about 2 senses of the word "will", to explain what it means to say God wishes all to be saved. St. Thomas isn't always easy, but be patient.

"St. Thomas Aquinas  S.T. I Q19 A6 Wrote:...everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circumstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts. Nor do we will simply, what we will antecedently, but rather we will it in a qualified manner; for the will is directed to things as they are in themselves, and in themselves they exist under particular qualifications. Hence we will a thing simply inasmuch as we will it when all particular circumstances are considered; and this is what is meant by willing consequently. Thus it may be said that a just judge wills simply the hanging of a murderer, but in a qualified manner he would will him to live, to wit, inasmuch as he is a man. Such a qualified will may be called a willingness rather than an absolute will. Thus it is clear that whatever God simply wills takes place; although what He wills antecedently may not take place.

Even if St. Augustine has an alternate interpretation of what  "God wishes all to be save" means (that it means, all classes of men),  what St. Thomas says still makes sense to me as true in itself.
(05-27-2011, 10:24 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]"How does he want everybody to be with him forever when not everybody will?"

Because He is Love Itself.

"How does he will Every single individual to be saved when he does not give the necessary grace to every single individual?"

He gives every single individual the necessary grace.  It is up to that individual to heed the call.

"Can God fail to accomplish what he wills?"

Everything that God wills is infalliblly accomplished.

"Does God will what he does not do?"

What he does not do is because He does not will it.
(05-27-2011, 11:47 PM)Doce Me Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-27-2011, 10:24 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]How does he want everybody to be with him forever when not everybody will?

How does he will Every single individual to be saved when he does not give the necessary grace to every single individual?

Can God fail to accomplish what he wills?

Does God will what he does not do?

You know this:  the Bible does say in at least one place that God wishes all to be saved (Timothy 2:4 "[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")  God antecedently wills each men to not die in mortal sin, and so to be saved, but He PERMITS the evil that is against His will, taken in the usual sense.

The problem is God's permission of evil.  Evil is the privation of good.  God permits evil.  God antecedently DOES WILL ALL THE GOOD that should be there, not the evil! Yet the good is not done! -  rather the evil is permitted.  There is a MYSTERY here - how can God allow free will and permit evil at all?  But we know He does. 

It is important to realize that words such as "will" can have different senses, both in common usage and in theology (I am no theologian but I know this much).  Here is where St. Thomas speaks about 2 senses of the word "will", to explain what it means to say God wishes all to be saved. St. Thomas isn't always easy, but be patient.

"St. Thomas Aquinas  S.T. I Q19 A6 Wrote:...everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circumstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts. Nor do we will simply, what we will antecedently, but rather we will it in a qualified manner; for the will is directed to things as they are in themselves, and in themselves they exist under particular qualifications. Hence we will a thing simply inasmuch as we will it when all particular circumstances are considered; and this is what is meant by willing consequently. Thus it may be said that a just judge wills simply the hanging of a murderer, but in a qualified manner he would will him to live, to wit, inasmuch as he is a man. Such a qualified will may be called a willingness rather than an absolute will. Thus it is clear that whatever God simply wills takes place; although what He wills antecedently may not take place.

Even if St. Augustine has an alternate interpretation of what  "God wishes all to be save" means (that it means, all classes of men),  what St. Thomas says still makes sense to me as true in itself.


God respects free will.  He made it.  He loves it.  Whatever you will He will respect.  It is up to you to do his will freely.  I you do it, you will be saved.
(05-28-2011, 01:16 AM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-27-2011, 10:24 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]"How does he want everybody to be with him forever when not everybody will?"

Because He is Love Itself.

"How does he will Every single individual to be saved when he does not give the necessary grace to every single individual?"

He gives every single individual the necessary grace.  It is up to that individual to heed the call.

"Can God fail to accomplish what he wills?"

Everything that God wills is infalliblly accomplished.

"Does God will what he does not do?"

What he does not do is because He does not will it.

God does not give everybody equal grace, read Romans 9. Some, he wills to be saved. Others, he wills not to save in accord with their sinfulness. Those whom he wills to save are the elect. Those whom he does not elect are damned. Only the elect receive intrinsically efficacious grace, or as St. Augustine called it, the "Victorious delight" of grace. In other words, God moved the will of the elect to freely choose him. TO say that our salvation hinges solely on our own choices is heresy, it is the error of the pelagians and semi-pelagians. Man does not will to respond to God unless God first moves the will, and God does not move all men's will.


Given that God willingly does not grant equal grace to all men, how can he then equally desire all to be saved? It seems Thomas Aquinas' argument is basing its view of God more on a human psychology rather than the tradition of the fathers and the scripture. I say this because essentially what he is saying is that God desires all to be saved, but in fact, he only wills some to be saved. Just cut the fat and say he only efficiently wills some to be saved, and not all.

God has no organs, he has no senses, therefore he has no passions, therefore he cannot "desire." And I do not see how he can will something he refuses to do.
(05-28-2011, 01:26 AM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-28-2011, 01:16 AM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-27-2011, 10:24 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]"How does he want everybody to be with him forever when not everybody will?"

Because He is Love Itself.

"How does he will Every single individual to be saved when he does not give the necessary grace to every single individual?"

He gives every single individual the necessary grace.  It is up to that individual to heed the call.

"Can God fail to accomplish what he wills?"

Everything that God wills is infalliblly accomplished.

"Does God will what he does not do?"

What he does not do is because He does not will it.

God does not give everybody equal grace, read Romans 9. Some, he wills to be saved. Others, he wills not to save in accord with their sinfulness. Those whom he wills to save are the elect. Those whom he does not elect are damned. Only the elect receive intrinsically efficacious grace, or as St. Augustine called it, the "Victorious delight" of grace. In other words, God moved the will of the elect to freely choose him. TO say that our salvation hinges solely on our own choices is heresy, it is the error of the pelagians and semi-pelagians. Man does not will to respond to God unless God first moves the will, and God does not move all men's will.


Given that God willingly does not grant equal grace to all men, how can he then equally desire all to be saved? It seems Thomas Aquinas' argument is basing its view of God more on a human psychology rather than the tradition of the fathers and the scripture. I say this because essentially what he is saying is that God desires all to be saved, but in fact, he only wills some to be saved. Just cut the fat and say he only efficiently wills some to be saved, and not all.

God has no organs, he has no senses, therefore he has no passions, therefore he cannot "desire." And I do not see how he can will something he refuses to do.


God will help you to want to be with Him.  You better heed the call.