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(06-22-2011, 11:35 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 10:57 PM)Doce Me Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 10:41 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]But Pope Pius IX does NOT say that, he says that we can trust that God will not condemn anyone who is not personally guilty. But he did not say by what means an invincibly ignorant person MIGHT be saved. I contend that if someone REALLY desires Christ, then Christ will make the Sacraments available, miracuolously if need be.

Pope Pius IX says:

Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace

Hypothesizing about in an impossible situation? That is what I call BOD!

And who are YOU to limit the will of God? If someone were dead and caught up to paradise, do you seriously think none such as these would be ressurected as a miracle at the request of a saint? THat's not an impossible situation, it sounds like a lack of faith.

NOW, If a person died without baptism, and IF they went to heaven, and IF God in his mercy to the people on EARTH chose to ressurect this person, then would they be entitled to the sacraments?
The "efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"  does not include the miracle of bringing physical things such as water and a preacher, or working out a person's life to get them.


This.

Oh, so now YOU get to limit God, huh? I see how it is. :pazzo:

DO this: Show me anywhere in scripture where GOd actually went AGAINST his covenant to accomodate "honest people" who "sincerely desired him." Honest people want to do GOd's will. And you are still ignoring the words of Christ himself.

John 3:5-

"Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


Rev. 22:14-16.

14Blessed are they that wash their robes: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

   15Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

   16I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and stock of David, the bright and morning star.
Several have been raised from the dead SOLELY to receive baptism, INCLUDING catechumens. Here is one such story from the life of St. Peter Claver, the "Saint of the Slaves":

"The affair of the slave Augustina, who served in the house of Captain Vincente de Villalobos, was one of the strangest in the life of Claver...When Augustina was in her last agony Villalobos went in search of Claver. When the latter arrived the body was already being prepared for the shroud and he found it cold to the touch. His expresion suddenly changed and he amazed everyone by crying aloud, "Augustina, Augustina." He sprinkled her with holy water, he knelt by her, and prayed for an hour. Suddenly the supposedly dead woman began to move...All fell on their knees. Augustina stared at Claver, and as if awakening from a deep sleep said, "Jesus, Jesus, how tired I am!" Claver told her to pray with all her heart and repent her sins, but those standing by, moved by curiosity, begged him to ask her where she came from. He did so, and she said these words: "I am come from journeying along a long road. It was a beautiful road, and after I had gone a long way down it I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said, 'Stop, you cannot go further.' I asked him what I should do, and he replied, 'Go back the way you have come, to the house you have left.' This I have done, but I cannot tell how." On hearing this Claver told them all to leave the room and leave him alone with her because he wished to hear her confession. He prepared her and told her that complete confession of her sins was of immense importance if she wanted to enter that paradise of which she had had a glimpse. She obeyed him, and as he heard her confession it became clear to Claver that she was not baptized. He straightway ordered water to be brought, and a candle and a crucifix. Her owners answered that they had had Augustina in their house for twenty years and that she behaved in all things like themselves. She had gone to confession, to Mass, and performed all her Christian duties, and therefore she did not need Baptism, nor could she receive it. But Claver was certain that they were wrong and insisted, baptizing her in the presence of all, to the great delight of her soul and his, for a few minutess after she had received the sacraments she died in the presence of the whole family." [FN #22]

And hear again is the beautiful story of St. Martin of Tours and the catechumen, as told by his disciple Suplicius Severus:

"Near Poitiers he installed himself in an anchorite's cell and was at once joined by a catechumen who was anxious to improve himself by the teaching of such a holy man. A few days later this catechumen fell sick of a violent attack of fever. It fell out that Martin was then absent. On his return at the end of three days he found a corpse. Death had come so suddenly that the unhappy man had not been able to receive Baptism before departing out of this world. Around the dead body the brethren were sadly employed in celebrating the funeral rites, when Martin hurriedly approached weping and lamenting. Inspired by the Holy Ghost, he causes all present to leave the cell in which the body lies. As soon as the door is close, he stretches himself upon the lifeless body of his dead brother. Absorbed for a long time in prayer, he feels the mercy of God is active by the intervention of the Holy Ghost. He raises himself slightly, his eyes fixed on the face of the dead man, awaiting with confidence the results of his prayer and of the mercy of the Lord. Hardly two hours have passed, when he sees the dead man slightly stir in all his limbs and with half-opened eyes blink at the light. Then, with a loud voice did Martin render thanks to the Lord; the sound of his thanksgiving filled the cell. On hearing him, those who were waiting outside the door rushed in to behold a wonderful sight, for they saw alive the one whom they had left a corpse."

"Thus restored to life the catechumen at once received Baptism and lived several years longer. He was the first among us to experience the might of Martin's virtue, and to bear witness to the same. Above all he loved to relate how, when free of the body, he had been led before the tribunal of the Judge. There he heard pronounced over him the dismal sentence relegating him to the infernal regions with the unredeemed; at which two angels interceded for him with the Judge, saying that this was the man for whom Martin was praying.

"As a consequence, these same angels were commanded to conduct him back to earth; they therefore restored him to Martin and re-established him in his former existence. From thenceforth glory shone round the name of the Blessed One, who indeed was already holy the the sight of all, but was now seen to be also powerful and truly apostolic. [FN #23]
(06-23-2011, 03:08 AM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]Several have been raised from the dead SOLELY to receive baptism, INCLUDING catechumens.

Yes but neither of those show a soul being brought back after entering the Beatific Vision or the eternal pains of Hell.  They obviously emphasize the necessity of baptism though, but they're hardly magisterial documents.
(06-22-2011, 06:01 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]The lifting of the excommunication is null and void since it was made by the infiltrated Talmudic Jew Paul VI.

Ahh, ok.

FWIW, I understand and sympathize with sede's, but I will say that the "Chair is empty" for only the time between the death of the current pope and the election of the next.

(06-23-2011, 08:09 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 06:01 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]The lifting of the excommunication is null and void since it was made by the infiltrated Talmudic Jew Paul VI.

Ahh, ok.

FWIW, I understand and sympathize with sede's, but I will say that the "Chair is empty" for only the time between the death of the current pope and the election of the next.

In truth, the popes have been the only thing preserving what Tradition is left in the Church. Without them the conciliar modernists would have completely destroyed the Church.
(06-23-2011, 12:33 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2011, 08:09 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 06:01 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]The lifting of the excommunication is null and void since it was made by the infiltrated Talmudic Jew Paul VI.

Ahh, ok.

FWIW, I understand and sympathize with sede's, but I will say that the "Chair is empty" for only the time between the death of the current pope and the election of the next.

In truth, the popes have been the only thing preserving what Tradition is left in the Church. Without them the conciliar modernists would have completely destroyed the Church.

well not the only, but an important part
(06-23-2011, 03:01 AM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 11:35 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 10:57 PM)Doce Me Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 10:41 PM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]But Pope Pius IX does NOT say that, he says that we can trust that God will not condemn anyone who is not personally guilty. But he did not say by what means an invincibly ignorant person MIGHT be saved. I contend that if someone REALLY desires Christ, then Christ will make the Sacraments available, miracuolously if need be.

Pope Pius IX says:

Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace

Hypothesizing about in an impossible situation? That is what I call BOD!

And who are YOU to limit the will of God? If someone were dead and caught up to paradise, do you seriously think none such as these would be ressurected as a miracle at the request of a saint? THat's not an impossible situation, it sounds like a lack of faith.

NOW, If a person died without baptism, and IF they went to heaven, and IF God in his mercy to the people on EARTH chose to ressurect this person, then would they be entitled to the sacraments?
The "efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"  does not include the miracle of bringing physical things such as water and a preacher, or working out a person's life to get them.


This.

Oh, so now YOU get to limit God, huh? I see how it is. :pazzo:

DO this: Show me anywhere in scripture where GOd actually went AGAINST his covenant to accomodate "honest people" who "sincerely desired him." Honest people want to do GOd's will. And you are still ignoring the words of Christ himself.

John 3:5-

"Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


Rev. 22:14-16.

14Blessed are they that wash their robes: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

   15Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

   16I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and stock of David, the bright and morning star.


Dear Gregory The Last  :pazzo:

"The "efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"  does not include the miracle of bringing physical things such as water and a preacher, or working out a person's life to get them." 

Your little mind failed to notice that the only word missing in the quote is "necessarily".

"The "efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"  does not necessarily include the miracle of bringing physical things such as water and a preacher, or working out a person's life to get them." 

Thus, God could bring the preacher with the water.  But then, God could directly put that soul in Grace.





(06-23-2011, 08:09 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 06:01 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]The lifting of the excommunication is null and void since it was made by the infiltrated Talmudic Jew Paul VI.

Ahh, ok.

FWIW, I understand and sympathize with sede's, but I will say that the "Chair is empty" for only the time between the death of the current pope and the election of the next.

And who is going to elect the next... ?  The electors are all masons.
(06-23-2011, 12:33 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2011, 08:09 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 06:01 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]The lifting of the excommunication is null and void since it was made by the infiltrated Talmudic Jew Paul VI.

Ahh, ok.

FWIW, I understand and sympathize with sede's, but I will say that the "Chair is empty" for only the time between the death of the current pope and the election of the next.

In truth, the popes have been the only thing preserving what Tradition is left in the Church. Without them the conciliar modernists would have completely destroyed the Church.


Cardinal Ottaviani and Cardinal Bacci both told Paul VI that his mass was a fraud.
(06-23-2011, 07:45 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2011, 08:09 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2011, 06:01 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]The lifting of the excommunication is null and void since it was made by the infiltrated Talmudic Jew Paul VI.

Ahh, ok.

FWIW, I understand and sympathize with sede's, but I will say that the "Chair is empty" for only the time between the death of the current pope and the election of the next.

And who is going to elect the next... ?  The electors are all masons.

You really like sweeping generalizations that you have no way of backing up, huh? It's not your place to libel or slander the cardinals. If yo have anything MORE than circumstantial evidence....well, impress me. But I don't think your off-the-wall comments are helpful.

So, Got any documents from the ordinary magisterium that explicitly spell out BOD for me?

Let me help:

Catechisms don't count.
Papal opinons delivered as either personal letters or general addresses or personal advice don't count.
THe writings of saints don't count.
The writings of the Fathers don't count.
Canon law does not count, it is not part of the ordinary magisterium.

Specifically, Encyclicals, Bulls, Apostolic Constitutions. Or if you want, any act of the solemn magisterium like papal decrees and ecumenical councils.