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damooster's thread got me  thinking. Did those first Protestants break the 4th Commandment, Honor your Father and Mother ? Those who left the Church were Catholic, and their parents raised them so. So, did they dishonor them ?
I do not they dishonored them, but this is a good question. If any children leave the True Faith after their parents raise them in it, instill it to them, send them to good Catholic schools, etc. is this a dishonor to their hard work/the family name/reputation?
I'd say so, but even more so, they dishonor all their previous ancestors who worked so hard to defend and promote the Faith. Fr. Ripperger uses this argument with respect to the New Mass and how implementing it was an affront to all the hard work and protection our forefathers gave in protecting the Mass.
(05-11-2011, 12:43 AM)LausTibiChriste Wrote: [ -> ]I'd say so, but even more so, they dishonor all their previous ancestors who worked so hard to defend and promote the Faith. Fr. Ripperger uses this argument with respect to the New Mass and how implementing it was an affront to all the hard work and protection our forefathers gave in protecting the Mass.

That brought some Chesterton to mind!

"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father."
Well, they (the first protestants) sure dishonored Mary and Our Lord.
So that would constitute a sinful act.
It does go against the 4th commandment. (Mary is our mother.) (Mary is our Lord's mother).
So along with offending Mary, they offended God. (And by the way, they still do)
As with any theology Luther touched, the breakaway monk warped the Fourth Commandment in a uniquely, well, Lutheran manner.

It is my understanding that he carved out an application of the Law in such a way to focus on state-individual relations.  I am not very well taught in this department so I leave up to others to fill in the details.  If I had to speculate, I would think that this emphasis on the civil (i.e. profane) was more pragmatic than anything else.

Luther depended on rebellious princes in order to nurture his rebellious heresy and so it would have been expedient to over-emphasize a sovereign's role as parent, or at least limit the application of this Commandment to civil authorities.

Of course, an immediate problem with this emphasis on 'sovereign as parent' is that it becomes difficult to expand the civil leader's role while curtailing role of the cleric ordained in lines of succession stemming from Christ Himself.  Admittedly, I'm fuzzy on how Luther arranged all of this (did he just rest on the 'Pope is anti-Christ' card?) as I have not plowed through the hysterical texts of the arch heretic.

Basically, the Protestant/Lutheran theology was so contradictory and absurd that I think many in the Church mistakenly, but in honest appraisal, determined it was not worth battling in its early stages.
(05-11-2011, 12:50 AM)Pheo Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-11-2011, 12:43 AM)LausTibiChriste Wrote: [ -> ]I'd say so, but even more so, they dishonor all their previous ancestors who worked so hard to defend and promote the Faith. Fr. Ripperger uses this argument with respect to the New Mass and how implementing it was an affront to all the hard work and protection our forefathers gave in protecting the Mass.

That brought some Chesterton to mind!

"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father."

I absolutely love this quote.  It expresses what I feel so much more eloquently than I ever could!  Smile
(05-10-2011, 11:45 PM)Dominus est Wrote: [ -> ]damooster's thread got me  thinking. Did those first Protestants break the 4th Commandment, Honor your Father and Mother ? Those who left the Church were Catholic, and their parents raised them so. So, did they dishonor them ?

Certainly they dishonored their parents. IMO, that might be putting it lightly - depending on the family.

What's worse is that those who left the faith, lost it for their children - and their children's children and so on till today - and for future generations. IMO, that lays more blame on those first Prots than dishonoring their parents ~ JMO of course.

Num 14:18 The Lord is patient and full of mercy, taking away iniquity and wickedness, and leaving no man clear, who visitest the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

If you figure out what the "third and fourth generation", in time, equate too, then it is no wonder that even today the sins of Protestantism from the first parents continue to be visited upon their children. 

(05-10-2011, 11:45 PM)Dominus est Wrote: [ -> ]damooster's thread got me  thinking. Did those first Protestants break the 4th Commandment, Honor your Father and Mother ? Those who left the Church were Catholic, and their parents raised them so. So, did they dishonor them ?
Yes, but more importantly they violated St Paul's injunction in Eph 6:4 connecting the 4th commandment with the responsibiltiy of parents to educate their children in the true Faith.  In dishonoring their parents they  lost their own souls while simultaneously endangering those of their children.  I agree with Stubborn, the latter sin seems worse.  It brings to mind Our Lord's saying about millstones...
They not only dishonored their eartly mother and father but more importantly they dishonered their Heavenly Father and their Mother Mary!
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