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(05-15-2011, 07:45 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]Am I the only one that sees this post as him backing away from the whole two Churches concept (at least in this particular blog post?). It seems he's saying it's just a figure of speech, and that's not what he literally means. It seems he's taking his own "hermeneutic of continuity" approach to his past blog posts which spoke of the Pope being head of two Churches.

I have not read those blogs. Did he used to refer to two Churches as a reality?
(05-15-2011, 02:02 AM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-15-2011, 12:58 AM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]Me thinks that the good bishop doesn't get out much. He speaks of the rotten fruit of the "conciliar church," but when is the last time that he actually set foot in a "conciliar church?" It was probably about 1976 or so, when he was ordained a priest by Archbishop Lefebvre. The information that he so confidently speaks of is that of a vicarious nature. It's all second-hand, from others whom he obviously trusts. I would challenge him to get out a little, and actually set foot in, and, *gasp* maybe even attend a "rotten" NO Mass, just to see for himself, rather than just take the word of others.

I've mentioned recently here that I've done a little experiment, and have attended NO/OF Masses in several U.S. states during the last year, and have been surprised that most of them have not been by any means "rotten." The last one I assisted at was yesterday. For the first time, I attended Mass at St. Peter's mission church on the Suquamish Indian reservation, near Seattle (Chief Seattle, a devout Catholic, is buried in a cemetery next to the church). The Mass was reverent, and the sermon excellent. The priest spoke of the need to stay true to the teachings of the Church, even if it means taking unpopular stands. He also said that we should show our faith in public, such as genuflecting when we have a meal in a restaurant. We sang Salve Regina at the end of Mass (in honor of Our Lady), and it was really cool that before Mass, the priest actually rang the old church bell, in the old-fashioned manner by pulling the rope, for about a full-minute.  A lovely Mass.

Well I went to a lovely old church hijacked by the Novus Ordo the other day to see a friend who was attending mass.  There was a table with a big picture of JP II on it where an altar should be.  Behind that a large painting of the Divine Mercy.   Grey shrouds mysteriously covered an beautiful old altar dedicated to Our Lady on the side.  The worst part of all was the noise.  There was never a moment of prayerful silence.  Jackasses on a guitars were playing abominable hymns whenever the priest was not speaking, and people prayed out loud with their arms spread wide.  This is considered a conservative Novus Ordo parish, but the whole thing is just a cult for JP II. 

Also, genuflecting for a meal at a restaurant is bloody weird.

I guess I've been unusually fortunate to have attended only one NO Mass such as the one you describe, and it was before my conversion. It was at St. Francis' church on Orcas Island. The priest told jokes (harmless ones, of course),  when he was getting the communion ready; no consecration of any sort. I was the only one in the room who dropped my jaw at this, and I wasn't even a Catholic. I think that we can all describe lousy NO's that we've attended, but, for the most part, the one's I've attended have not been by any means, "rotten." Not even my Protestant friends or relatives have ever described the Mass in such a derogatory manner.

As regarding genuflecting in a restaurant before a meal, an SSPX priest also told me that I should do this. Actually, he also said that it would be a good idea to genuflect before and after my meal in the employee breakroom at my workplace, but since I received some strange looks from this, I stopped. This is a saintly SSPX priest. Though I no longer attend an SSPX chapel, he provided a mostly good formation, I think.

I still think that the good bishop needs to get out more.
(05-15-2011, 12:58 AM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]Me thinks that the good bishop doesn't get out much. He speaks of the rotten fruit of the "conciliar church," but when is the last time that he actually set foot in a "conciliar church?"

We have photos of him carrying a cross into St. Peter's in 2000.  

Quote: It was probably about 1976 or so, when he was ordained a priest by Archbishop Lefebvre. The information that he so confidently speaks of is that of a vicarious nature. It's all second-hand, from others whom he obviously trusts. I would challenge him to get out a little, and actually set foot in, and, *gasp* maybe even attend a "rotten" NO Mass, just to see for himself, rather than just take the word of others.

He's right for one thing.  Novus Ordos are rotten and I've seen a few at various Churches in recent years.  He also knows the texts of the Novus Ordo.  And he obviously has communication with Novus Ordo priests because in his 2005 interviews with Bernard Janzen, he was stating that "not every priest in the Novus Ordo is losing the faith."  

Quote: I've mentioned recently here that I've done a little experiment, and have attended NO/OF Masses in several U.S. states during the last year, and have been surprised that most of them have not been by any means "rotten."

Different standars of what constitutes "rotten" are being applied.  

Quote:  The last one I assisted at was yesterday. For the first time, I attended Mass at St. Peter's mission church on the Suquamish Indian reservation, near Seattle (Chief Seattle, a devout Catholic, is buried in a cemetery next to the church). The Mass was reverent, and the sermon excellent. The priest spoke of the need to stay true to the teachings of the Church, even if it means taking unpopular stands. He also said that we should show our faith in public, such as genuflecting when we have a meal in a restaurant. We sang Salve Regina at the end of Mass (in honor of Our Lady), and it was really cool that before Mass, the priest actually rang the old church bell, in the old-fashioned manner by pulling the rope, for about a full-minute.  A lovely Mass.

None of those traditions or acts of piety are intrinsic to the Mass.  They are the equivalent of icing, it can go on a cake or go on a shoe and it wil be just as sweet.
BTW, what are you supposed to genuflect to when you are in a restaurant?  The waiters station?  The Restrooms, the Kitchen?  The people in front of you?  Maybe you should bring a monstrance and have a holy hour before enjoying a "grand slam."  Smile
Gerard,

I didn't know that the Bishop carried a cross into St. Peters' in 2000. Cool! Still, we will have to disagree about the supposed "rotteness" of the NO. I'll stick with the Holy Father, who has never said that the NO is rotten. He has complained about the abuses that have occurred with the NO, but not that it is intrinsically rotten. Regarding different standards of what constitutes "rotten," perhaps it is all in the eyes of the beholder.
(05-15-2011, 10:22 AM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]BTW, what are you supposed to genuflect to when you are in a restaurant?  The waiters station?  The Restrooms, the Kitchen?  The people in front of you?  Maybe you should bring a monstrance and have a holy hour before enjoying a "grand slam."  Smile

Gerard, don't you genuflect when you say your prayers, both before and after your meals at your home?
Meg, I'm confused. Who wanted you to genuflect before a meal? Your first post says the NO but your second says SSPX.

Also, not trying to be rude, but to think that the Bishop hasn't gotten out much indicates you probably don't know him well. He isn't who he is for all these decades because of secondhand accounts coming to him as he hides out in his office. He's been on the front lines since before many of us were born and has seen and experienced more than many of us combined. Agree or disagree with him, it has nothing to do with him not getting out.
The idea of the Two Churches was invented in the 60's by an Argentine Priest called Julio Meinvielle

I wouldn't be surprised if Williamson learned that here before he was expulsed from Argentina

This is the text in Spanish

"“Pero así como la Iglesia comenzó siendo una semilla pequeñísima, y se hizo árbol y árbol frondoso, así puede reducirse en su frondosidad y tener una realidad mucha más modesta. Sabemos que el mysterium iniquitatis ya está obrando; pero no sabemos los límites de su poder.

Sin embargo, no hay dificultad en admitir que la Iglesia de la publicidad pueda ser ganada por el enemigo y convertirse de Iglesia Católica en Iglesia gnóstica. Puede haber dos Iglesias, la una la de la publicidad, Iglesia magnificada en la propaganda, con obispos, sacerdotes y teólogos publicitados, y aun con un Pontífice de actitudes ambiguas; y otra, Iglesia del silencio, con un Papa fiel a Jesucristo en su enseñanza y con algunos sacerdotes, obispos y fieles que le sean adictos, esparcidos como “pusillus grex” por toda la tierra.

Esta segunda sería la Iglesia de las promesas, y no aquella primera, que pudiera defeccionar. Un mismo Papa presidiría ambas Iglesias, que aparente y exteriormente no sería sino una. El Papa, con sus actitudes ambiguas, daría pie para mantener el equívoco. Porque, por una parte, profesando una doctrina intachable sería cabeza de la Iglesia de las Promesas. Por otra parte, produciendo hechos equívocos y aun reprobables, aparecería como alentando la subversión y manteniendo la Iglesia gnóstica de la Publicidad."


This is my own terrible translation of the relevant part

There can be two churches, the first one of publicity, a church magnified through propaganda, with publicized bishops, priests, and theologians, and even with a Pope of ambiguous attitudes, and another, a Church of silence, with a Pope loyal to Christ in the teachings, with some priests, bishops, and loyal catholics, who follow him, and are spreaded around earth as "pussilus grex"

This second Church would be the one of the promises, and not the first one, which could defect. The same pope would be the head of both churches, which apparently and outwardly would be the same church and not two different ones.
The Pope, with his ambiguous attitudes, would allow the manteinence of all that is equivocal. So, one one side, by professing an uncorrupted doctrine, he would be the head of the Church of the promises. One the other side, by producing ambiguous acts, and even reproachable acts, he would appear as if he were supporting the subversion and mantaining the Gnostic Church of Publicity.


That was written before JPII was made Pope and before Assisi. I think it is a dangerous idea.
(05-15-2011, 10:31 AM)wallflower Wrote: [ -> ]Meg, I'm confused. Who wanted you to genuflect before a meal? Your first post says the NO but your second says SSPX.

Also, not trying to be rude, but to think that the Bishop hasn't gotten out much indicates you probably don't know him well. He isn't who he is for all these decades because of secondhand accounts coming to him as he hides out in his office. He's been on the front lines since before many of us were born and has seen and experienced more than many of us combined. Agree or disagree with him, it has nothing to do with him not getting out.

I don't think you're being rude at all. It was in an NO sermon that I attended two days ago, where the priest said that we should not be afraid to show our faith in a public manner - such as genuflecting when we say our before and after meal prayers - even in a restaurant. I apologise if I wasn't clear about that. An SSPX priest told me the same thing once. I almost always say at least a before meal prayer at restaurants - with the usual genuflection. No one has ever said that they were bothered by this. If others in the restaurant are offended by this, then that 's too bad, but I'm not going to stop because of it. We should not be afraid to show that we are Catholics.

(05-15-2011, 10:38 AM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-15-2011, 10:31 AM)wallflower Wrote: [ -> ]Meg, I'm confused. Who wanted you to genuflect before a meal? Your first post says the NO but your second says SSPX.

Also, not trying to be rude, but to think that the Bishop hasn't gotten out much indicates you probably don't know him well. He isn't who he is for all these decades because of secondhand accounts coming to him as he hides out in his office. He's been on the front lines since before many of us were born and has seen and experienced more than many of us combined. Agree or disagree with him, it has nothing to do with him not getting out.
I don't think you're being rude at all. It was in an NO sermon that I attended two days ago, where the priest said that we should not be afraid to show our faith in a public manner - such as genuflecting when we say our before and after meal prayers - even in a restaurant. I apologise if I wasn't clear about that. An SSPX priest told me the same thing once. I almost always say at least a before meal prayer at restaurants - with the usual genuflection. No one has ever said that they were bothered by this. If others in the restaurant are offended by this, then that 's too bad, but I'm not going to stop because of it. We should not be afraid to show that we are Catholics.

Thank you.  Smile

Interesting. I've never heard of genuflecting for grace and you've heard it from two different priests! We have genuflected for the Angelus though, said with grace, but not in public. In public, the Sign of the Cross is our outward sign.

Come to think of it,  we don't even genuflect for the Angelus in private anymore. I couldn't say why though. We've been exposed to different customs from different places and I often can't remember who does what and why. 
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