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Vetus,
  Fair enough. Father Amorth describes in his first book how the demons can be brought under obedience during an exorcism and compelled to speak the truth. Now, whether that is reliable 100% of the time I'm not so sure.

C.
Gerard Wrote:oh.. because you say so..  What's the difference between invoking the intercession of a saint and a superstition?  Or do you doubt the whole existence of the preternatural or the supernatural?

A saint will provide positive results whereas superstitions are a waste of time or worse. 

Gerard Wrote:Yes, of course, they are all scum. If Fr. Amorth weren't an exorcist, you'd probably cite the fact that he has no credibility or authority in these matters because he's not an exorcist.  And Fr. Martin can't write the truth about anything he actually knows because he has to sell books as if all writers have to lie to convince people. (Did the evangelists have to lie to make the Gospel more palatable to the people? )

Well, if you say so.  I think they should be subject to normal scrutiny and not be placed on pedestals as unquestionable authorities.

Gerard Wrote:2nd attempt.  What do you quantify as evidence and are you saying that a lack of documentable extraordinary phenomena means no preternatural influence?

Why are you asking me?  Why don't you ask them since they are making the claims?

Gerard Wrote:Do you believe JPII is in Hell?  I don't have confidence in JPII's papacy or personality but he may still have wound up in heaven and maybe God is allowing him to do some good that he may have wanted to but couldn't in his earthly life.

Lots of maybes.  Only Hitler and Bin Laden are in Hell, right?
(05-19-2011, 08:02 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-19-2011, 07:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-19-2011, 07:56 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]Father Gabriel Amorth does not need to prove himself to anyone posting here. His credentials are well established as an exorcist with over 20 years of experience plus he was elected president of the International Association of Exorcists. No one here has credentials like that. Father Amorth studied under the tutelage of Father Candido Amantini who was the exorcist of Rome for 36 years. Amantini was a saintly man and well regarded by Padre Pio. Father Amantini thought highly of Father Amorth. Father Amorth never proceeds to assume anyone is truly possessed until all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out. Enough said.

Cecil locutus, causa finita?

I didn't say that. But the idea that anyone here can easily dismiss him is far fetched.

C.

If all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out, then there must be some extraordinary evidence to show that unnatural actions are taking place.  What or where is it?  Can't we produce something on tape?  I've seen nothing yet that can't be naturally explained. 

The same goes for modern day "miraculous" healings. Why is it always internal stuff instead of something tangible like the miracle at Lanciano? 
(05-19-2011, 11:54 PM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]If all medical and psychological possibilities have been ruled out, then there must be some extraordinary evidence to show that unnatural actions are taking place.  What or where is it?  Can't we produce something on tape?  I've seen nothing yet that can't be naturally explained. 

The same goes for modern day "miraculous" healings. Why is it always internal stuff instead of something tangible like the miracle at Lanciano? 

You probably need to actually explore the subject and do some reading before posting an opinion. I don't see why "internal stuff" would not be considered miraculous when doctors have certified a miracle  as they do prior to a canonization. Are you an M.D. ?
How many instances of exorcism or alleged exorcism have you ever seen? And have found a natural explanation for ?  How many miracles have you disproved?

C.

learned a lot from Mhorams posts, v interesting.
can a great and good man like JPII who happened to be a pope get to heaven.
I think being as charitable as possible we can say he didn't exactly show a great deal of enthusiasm for his own church. He underestimated the extent of moral rebuilding that needed to take place in the world after the collapse of Communism. Perhaps he thought his charisma and luminous love for all could fill the void.
As he became an icon of suffering he tended to let it all slide, the back office stuff had always bored him to tears anyway, and I agree he probably just left it all to God.
I have to say he had a disturbing tendency to trust the words of men, he loved the modern world almost in a Panglossian kind of way, and he was assertive in precisely the way a pope shouldn't be on things relating to opinion and not doctrine.

On the possession point what about society at large, look at the media and the people in  politics. They look pretty possessed to me, they satisfy the tests, irrational, fanatical in their false beliefs, worshippers of idols, prepared to sacrifice people to their demon overlords.




Cetil Wrote:You probably need to actually explore the subject and do some reading before posting an opinion. I don't see why "internal stuff" would not be considered miraculous when doctors have certified a miracle  as they do prior to a canonization. Are you an M.D. ?
How many instances of exorcism or alleged exorcism have you ever seen? And have found a natural explanation for ?  How many miracles have you disproved?

C.

I've done enough research to show that you don't have any tangible evidence.  Would you only consult one doctor before undergoing major surgery?  Why are you shifting the burden of proof on me?  I'm not the one making charlatan claims.  Are you a Benny Hinn supporter?
(05-19-2011, 11:39 PM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ] A saint will provide positive results whereas superstitions are a waste of time or worse. 

So, by your standards saints are okay(and you always get a positive result), but sacramentals are superstitious.  

Quote:
Gerard Wrote:Yes, of course, they are all scum. If Fr. Amorth weren't an exorcist, you'd probably cite the fact that he has no credibility or authority in these matters because he's not an exorcist.  And Fr. Martin can't write the truth about anything he actually knows because he has to sell books as if all writers have to lie to convince people. (Did the evangelists have to lie to make the Gospel more palatable to the people? )

Well, if you say so.  I think they should be subject to normal scrutiny and not be placed on pedestals as unquestionable authorities.

It seems you have more of an axe to grind with the people that support them rather than the content of their work.   What is "normal scrutiny" for exorcists?

Quote:
Gerard Wrote:2nd attempt.  What do you quantify as evidence and are you saying that a lack of documentable extraordinary phenomena means no preternatural influence?

Why are you asking me?  Why don't you ask them since they are making the claims?

I'm asking you because you are making the demand.  If you can't quantify what you are demanding, you are making an unreasonable demand.

Gerard Wrote:Do you believe JPII is in Hell?  I don't have confidence in JPII's papacy or personality but he may still have wound up in heaven and maybe God is allowing him to do some good that he may have wanted to but couldn't in his earthly life.

Lots of maybes.  Only Hitler and Bin Laden are in Hell, right?
[/quote]

I don't know about either of those two, do you?  
(05-20-2011, 09:17 AM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:You probably need to actually explore the subject and do some reading before posting an opinion. I don't see why "internal stuff" would not be considered miraculous when doctors have certified a miracle  as they do prior to a canonization. Are you an M.D. ?
How many instances of exorcism or alleged exorcism have you ever seen? And have found a natural explanation for ?  How many miracles have you disproved?

C.

I've done enough research to show that you don't have any tangible evidence.  Would you only consult one doctor before undergoing major surgery?  Why are you shifting the burden of proof on me?  I'm not the one making charlatan claims.  Are you a Benny Hinn supporter?

You haven't done any research.  You are simply trying to get attention by being contrarian.  Nobody should believe you when you make those claims. 
(05-20-2011, 09:49 AM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-20-2011, 09:17 AM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:You probably need to actually explore the subject and do some reading before posting an opinion. I don't see why "internal stuff" would not be considered miraculous when doctors have certified a miracle  as they do prior to a canonization. Are you an M.D. ?
How many instances of exorcism or alleged exorcism have you ever seen? And have found a natural explanation for ?  How many miracles have you disproved?

C.

I've done enough research to show that you don't have any tangible evidence.  Would you only consult one doctor before undergoing major surgery?  Why are you shifting the burden of proof on me?  I'm not the one making charlatan claims.  Are you a Benny Hinn supporter?

You haven't done any research.  You are simply trying to get attention by being contrarian.  Nobody should believe you when you make those claims. 

So I guess you don't have any tangible evidence either.  I'm not surprised. 
(05-20-2011, 10:45 AM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-20-2011, 09:49 AM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-20-2011, 09:17 AM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]
Cetil Wrote:You probably need to actually explore the subject and do some reading before posting an opinion. I don't see why "internal stuff" would not be considered miraculous when doctors have certified a miracle  as they do prior to a canonization. Are you an M.D. ?
How many instances of exorcism or alleged exorcism have you ever seen? And have found a natural explanation for ?  How many miracles have you disproved?

C.

I've done enough research to show that you don't have any tangible evidence.  Would you only consult one doctor before undergoing major surgery?  Why are you shifting the burden of proof on me?  I'm not the one making charlatan claims.  Are you a Benny Hinn supporter?

You haven't done any research.  You are simply trying to get attention by being contrarian.  Nobody should believe you when you make those claims. 

So I guess you don't have any tangible evidence either.  I'm not surprised. 

I'm late to the game, but I tried rereading the last couple pages and I still don't really understand what you're saying.  Are you saying that we shouldn't trust Fr. Martin and Fr. Amorth or that we shouldn't trust any exorcists?  Or are you denying possession all together?
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