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Why keep it a secret one wonders?

Quote:During the early days of the Second Vatican Council, a secret meeting took place between the Holy See and a group of Jews. It was a kind of “Vatican-Moscow” agreement applied to the Synagogue. The Vatican-Moscow agreement was a secret pact between Vatican and the Kremlin made in 1962 wherein in exchange for Russian Orthodox observers to be present at the Council, John XXIII guaranteed that Vatican II would contain no condemnation of Communism. [17]
    News of the pact between Moscow and the Vatican is now widely publicized. The Vatican’s secret accord with Jewish leaders is not so well known.
    The meeting concerning the Jews took place around 1962-63, and was recounted by the Jewish writer Lazare Landau in the French journal Tribune Juive (number 903), dated January 17-23, 1986. Pope John XXIII had entrusted these negotiations to Cardinal Bea, who at the time was the Pope’s point man for ecumenism and interreligious dialogue.
    Landau writes of Bea: “He sent secret emissaries to the Jewish communities to find out what they wanted. Thus, the Jews of Strasbourg received the Reverend Father Congar, OP, who came, shrouded in mystery, to the synagogue, where he listened for two hours as the community leaders explained their grievances.”
This was the origin of the “new perspective” that would be imposed on Catholic doctrine, which was, as Jean Madiran notes, that “we must no longer speak of the infidelity of Israel but of its fidelity.”
    Lazare Landau went into much more detail about this meeting in number 1001 of Tribune Juive, dated December 25-31, 1987. Landau reveals:

      “On a misty, freezing winter’s evening in 1962-1963, I went to the Centre communautaire de le Paix [Peace Community Center] at Strasbourg in response to an extraordinary invitation. The Jewish leaders were holding a secret meeting in the basement with the envoy of the Pope. At the conclusion of the Sabbath, a dozen of us were there to welcome a white-robed Dominican, the Reverend Yves Congar, whom Cardinal Bea, in the name of John XXIII had charged with asking us, on the eve of the Council, what we expected from the Church...
      “The Jews, kept apart from Christian society for nearly twenty centuries, and often treated as underdogs, enemies and deicides, asked to be completely rehabilitated. As descendants in the direct lineage from the monotheistic stock of Abraham, where Christianity arose, they asked to be considered as brothers, partners equal in dignity, of the Christian Church…
      “The white messenger, divested of any symbol or adornment, returned to Rome taking with him innumerable petitions in harmony with our own. After difficult debate … the Council granted our wishes.

http://www.cfnews.org/b16-significantsilence.htm
"I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build. There was nothing holy about it... People were kneading bread in the crypt below... but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion. Then, my Guide [Jesus] said: 'THIS IS BABEL.' [The Mass in many languages]." recorded in The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich by Rev. Carl E. Schmoeger, C.SS.R

IBID
"I saw the Holy' Father surrounded by traitors and in great distress about the Church. He had visions and apparitions in his hour of greatest need. I saw many good pious Bishops; but they were weak and wavering, their cowardice often got the upper hand. I saw the black fellow plotting again, the destroyers attacking the Church of Peter, Mary standing with her mantle over it, and the enemies of God put to flight. I saw Sts. Peter and Paul laboring actively for the Church and their basilica greatly enlarged. Then I saw darkness spreading around and people no longer seeking the true Church. They went to another, saying: ' All is more beautiful, more natural here, better regulated " - but, as yet, I have seen no ecclesiastic among them. I saw the Pope firm, but greatly perplexed. The treaty thought to be so advantageous to us will be of no use; things will go from bad to worse. The Pope shows more energy now; he has been advised to hold out till death, and this he gained by his late act of firmness. But his last orders are of no account, he enforces them too feebly. I saw over the city terrible evils from the north.
* St. Gregory the Great (590-604), in Epistulae  (VIII, XXV, cf. IX, LV), wrote that unrestricted liberty should not be granted to the Jews because of the frequent offenses they made against the Faith. (10)

In a letter to the Frankish Kings, Theodoricus and Theodebertus, and to Queen Bruhilda, the Saint reminded them that Christians, members of the Body of Christ, should never be trampled upon by Jews, enemies of Christ. (11)

* Honorius I (625-638) urged the VI Council of Toledo, held in 638, to act forcefully regarding the danger the Jews represented for the Catholic Faith. (12)

Leo VII (936-939) authorized Archbishop Frederic of Moguncia, Germany, to expel the Jews from the city, given the constant attacks they launched against the Catholics. (13)

* In a letter of January 17, 1208 addressed to the Count of Nevers, France, (14) Innocent III (1198-1216) lamented that feudal lords were employing Jews as “ministers of their extortions” because they exploited Christians through the practice of usury. (15)

* In 1239, after receiving a report compiled by Nicolas Donin, a converted Jew from La Rochelle, that showed 35 articles in the Talmud insulting the Catholic Faith, Gregory IX (1227-1241) wrote to the Western Bishops and Sovereigns ordering all copies of the Jewish book to be confiscated. He appointed William of Auvergne, Bishop of Paris, to make an investigation on the matter. Once examined, the Talmud was condemned and copies of it were burnt publicly in Paris in 1242. At the request of the Jews, the book was examined again in 1248 and definitively condemned by William of Auvergne and the masters of theology from Paris, among them St. Albert the Great. (16) In the work Excerpta talmudica [Excerpts from the Talmud], written to justify the condemnation, one reads:

“By a secret design of Divine Providence, the errors, blasphemies, and outrages contained in the Talmud had hitherto escaped the attention of the Doctors of the Church. The wall has finally been removed, and now one can clearly see the reptiles, the abominable idols that the house of Israel adores.” (17)

* Innocent IV (1243-1254) ordered the Talmud to be burned because it was filled with errors and blasphemies. (18) In the Bull Sicut tua nobis of July 23, 1254, he authorized the Archbishop of Vienna to expel the Jews from his Diocese on account of their actions against the Catholic Faith and their disobedience of Church statutes. (19)

* In the Bull Damnabili perfídia of July 15, 1267, Clement IV (1265-1268) also condemned the Talmud. (20)

* In the Bull Nimis in partibus anglicanis of November 18, 1285, Honorius IV (1285-1287) took the same attitude as his predecessors regarding the Talmud. (21)

* John XXII (1316-1334) again condemned the errors of the Talmud in the Bull Dudum felicis recordationis of September 4, 1320. (22)

* In the Bull Dudum ad nostram of August 8, 1442, Eugene IV (1431-1447) prohibited the Jews not only from living with Christians, as the Third Lateran Council had already established (Decree V, VI, 5), but also from living among Christians, given the continuous blasphemies and attacks of the Jews against the Catholic Faith. (23)

* Nicholas V (1447-1455), Calixtus III (1455-1458), and Paul II (1464-1471) reenacted or renewed the decisions of their predecessors. (24)

* In the Bull Intenta semper salutis, of May 31, 1484, Sixtus IV (1471-1484) ordered that Jews and Muslins in Spanish lands should live separate from Christians, should wear different clothing, and should not have Christian maids or servants in their houses, in addition to other measures aimed at protecting the faithful from dangers to the Faith resulting from living with Jews. (25)

* Pius IV (1560-1565) in 1564 placed the Talmud on the Index librorum prohibitorum [Index of forbidden books] and prohibited books interpreting, commenting or expounding on it. (31)

* In the Bull Hebraeorum gens of February 26, 1569, St. Pius V (1566-1572) expressly condemned the Jews who dedicated themselves to the practice of “divination, sortilege, sorcery and witchcraft.” (32) In that bull St. Pius V also accused the Jews of other crimes such as usury, theft, receiving stolen goods, and soliciting for prostitution. He closes his bull with these words:

    “Finally, we consider as known and proven how offensively this perverse generation [the Jews] offends the name of Christ, how hostile it is to those who carry the name of Christians, even making attempts against their lives.” (33)

By a decree of February 26, 1569, St. Pius V expelled the Jews from the Pontifical States, since, in addition to the mentioned crimes, the Jews spied for the Muslims and supported their plans of conquest that endangered all Christendom. (34) In this Brief, he said:

    “We know that this most perverse people have always been the cause and seed-bag of almost all the heresies.” (35)

To this vigilant energy against the Jewish perfidy, St. Pius V added his zealous desire for their conversion. One of the most remarkable conversions he achieved was that of the chief-rabbi of Rome, Elias, followed by the conversions of his three sons and one grandson. On June 4, 1566, they solemnly received Baptism at St. Peter’s Basilica in the presence of the Sacred College of Cardinals and a multitude of the faithful. (36)

* In the Brief of May 27, 1581, Gregory XIII (1572-1585) warned the faithful and religious authorities against the false conversions of Jews as a means to infiltrate the Catholic Church. (37) In the Bull Antiqua Judeorum improbitas of June 1, 1581, the Pontiff established these conditions for when Jews must be submitted to the vigilance of the Inquisition:

    a. when they attack Catholic dogmas;
    b. when they invoke devils or offer sacrifices to them;
    c. when they teach Catholics to do the same;
    d. when they speak blasphemies against Our Lord and Our Lady;
    e. when they try to induce Catholics to abandon their Faith;
    f. when they forbid a Jew or an infidel to convert;
    g. when they consciously favor heretics;
    h. when they disseminate heretical books;
    i. when, in disdain for Our Lord, they crucify a lamb – principally on Good-Friday – and then spit on it and spew it with insults.
    j. when they oblige Catholic wet-nurses to pour their milk into the toilettes and sewers after they have received the Eucharist. (38)

In the Brief of February 28, 1581, the Pope reaffirmed the prohibition against Jewish physicians tending to Catholic patients. (39)

* In the Bull Cum Hebraeorum of February 28, 1593, (40) Clement VIII (1592-1605) proscribed talmudic and cabalistic books, as well as works written in Hebrew containing errors. (41) The prohibition contained in this bull was included as a norm in the Index, published on March 27, 1596.

In 1592 Clement VIII re-established the preaching of sermons aimed at the conversion of the Jews and, at the same time, in the Bull Caeca et obdurata of January 25, 1593, reiterated the decrees of Paul IV and St. Pius V expelling them from the States of the Church, with the exception of the cities of Rome, Ancona, and Avignon. (42)

* Urban VIII (1623-1644) sent a Brief to the King of Spain on January 15, 1628 opposing the crime of usury practiced by the Jews of Portugal. (43)

* On September 15, 1751, Benedict XIV (1740-1758) signed and promulgated a document reaffirming the cautionary measures regarding the Talmud taken by the Popes since Innocent IV. (44)

* In October 1775 (45) and January 1793 (46), Pius VI (1775-1799) published two edicts confirming the directives of Benedict XIV regarding the Jews.

* Through a letter by his Secretary of State, Cardinal Merry del Val, St. Pius X (1903-1914) warmly praised the classic work of Msgr. Henri Delassus, La conjuration antichrétinne [The anti-Christian Conspiracy], which exposes the conspiracy of Judaism and Freemasonry against the Catholic Church and Christian Civilization



And yet:

Jews and Christians must share a “common mission” to “be a witness to the one God” so as to “open the door into the world for this God - Benedict XVI - Many Religions – One Covenant, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1998], p. 45-46.
(06-16-2011, 01:31 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]And yet:

Jews and Christians must share a “common mission” to “be a witness to the one God” so as to “open the door into the world for this God - Benedict XVI - Many Religions – One Covenant, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1998], p. 45-46.

After 2000 years of history, we know have a Jewish Pope.

What a privilege.
I've recently been studying Pope Paul VI for an exam - wow. He was some piece of work (didn't realise just how messed up some of the stuff he said was). So all of this seems pretty much par for the course.
(06-16-2011, 02:03 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]I've recently been studying Pope Paul VI for an exam - wow. He was some piece of work (didn't realise just how messed up some of the stuff he said was). So all of this seems pretty much par for the course.

Mind sharing an example or two??
(06-16-2011, 12:01 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]"I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build. There was nothing holy about it... People were kneading bread in the crypt below... but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion. Then, my Guide [Jesus] said: 'THIS IS BABEL.' [The Mass in many languages]." recorded in The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich by Rev. Carl E. Schmoeger, C.SS.R

IBID
"I saw the Holy' Father surrounded by traitors and in great distress about the Church. He had visions and apparitions in his hour of greatest need. I saw many good pious Bishops; but they were weak and wavering, their cowardice often got the upper hand. I saw the black fellow plotting again, the destroyers attacking the Church of Peter, Mary standing with her mantle over it, and the enemies of God put to flight. I saw Sts. Peter and Paul laboring actively for the Church and their basilica greatly enlarged. Then I saw darkness spreading around and people no longer seeking the true Church. They went to another, saying: ' All is more beautiful, more natural here, better regulated " - but, as yet, I have seen no ecclesiastic among them. I saw the Pope firm, but greatly perplexed. The treaty thought to be so advantageous to us will be of no use; things will go from bad to worse. The Pope shows more energy now; he has been advised to hold out till death, and this he gained by his late act of firmness. But his last orders are of no account, he enforces them too feebly. I saw over the city terrible evils from the north.

All I can say to that is wow, especially the first one.
(06-16-2011, 02:01 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-16-2011, 01:31 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]And yet:

Jews and Christians must share a “common mission” to “be a witness to the one God” so as to “open the door into the world for this God - Benedict XVI - Many Religions – One Covenant, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1998], p. 45-46.

After 2000 years of history, we know have a Jewish Pope.

What a privilege.

We already got a jewish pope in the person of Paul VI. His mother was jewish and she purportedly converted on the eve of her wedding day.
(06-16-2011, 02:55 PM)LausTibiChriste Wrote: [ -> ]All I can say to that is wow, especially the first one.

Unfortunately, that one is a known forgery by Yves Dupont or whoever he got the quote from. It takes different portions of different prophecies and ties them together to make them look like they are the same one and then implies they are speaking about today.

The prophecies come from different portions of the book cited after the alleged quote. Using the original Schmoeger book from TAN, the first portion comes from page 283, paragraph 2, then a portion from page 283, paragraph 1, then a portion page 85, and finally a portion from page 132. It is all then put together without any hint at what is being done, and including a bracketed portion which is completely misleading and contrary to the context. Neither the part about the bread not rising, nor the part about Babel has to do with liturgies at all. The part about spiritual communion references Protestant churches topped by weather-cocks (as they commonly were in those days), rather than crosses.

For example, here is one of the actual visions used by Dupont:

Quote: "I saw a fantastic, odd-looking church being built. The choir was in three parts, each raised some steps above the last; and under it was a deep vault full of fog. On the first platform of the choir was a seat; on the second, a basin of water; on the third, a table. I saw no angel helping in the construction, but numbers of the most violent planetary spirits dragging all sorts of things into the vault where persons in little ecclesiastical mantles received them and deposited them in their various places. Nothing was brought from above; all came from the earth and the dark regions, all was built up by the planetary spirits. The water alone seemed to have something holy about it. I saw an enormous number of instruments brought into the church, and many persons, even children, had different tools, as if trying to make something; but all was obscure, absurd, dead! Division and destruction reigned everywhere. - Near by, I saw another church, shining and rich with graces from on high, angels ascending and descending. In it were life and increase, tepidity and dissipation ; and yet it was like a tree full of sap compared with the other which was like a chest of lifeless institutions.

The former was like a bird on the wing, the latter, like a paper dragon, its tail adorned with ribands and writings, dragging over a stubble-field. I saw that many of the instruments in the new church, such as spears and darts, were meant to be used against the living Church. Every one dragged in something different, clubs, rods, pumps, cudgels, puppets, mirrors, trumpets, horns, bellows-all sorts of things. In the cave below (the sacristy) some people kneaded bread, but nothing came of it; it would not rise. The men in the little mantles brought wood to the steps of the pulpit to make a fire. They puffed and blew and labored hard, but the fire would not burn; all they produced was smoke and fumes. Then they broke a hole in the roof and ran up a pipe, but the smoke would not rise, and the whole place became black and suffocating. Some blew the horns so violently that the tears streamed from their eyes. All in this church belonged to the earth, returned to the earth, all was dead, the work of human skill, a church of the latest style, a church of man's invention like the new heterodox church in Rome."

From what I've read it references Freemasonry. The heterodox church in Rome is the Masonic lodge established there when Pius IX was forced to retreat into the Vatican with the confiscation of the papal states. Rome was declared the capital of the new Liberal (ie based on Masonic principles), unified Italy. Of course, the Church of Rome remained there as well along side it.

In the general context, the period in which Emmerich lived and which followed directly her prophecies was marked by Liberal revolutions whereby Catholicism was displaced from public life by naturalism (ie no reference to the supernatural; also called rationalism) which was becoming the governing principle of most of Europe and the Americas. In other words, nations--including Christians--were adopting the Masonic ideals. These folks had no care of Heaven, which is why they were "of the earth." Of course, such principles are sterile--the bread did not rise (unlike the leaven of grace), the smoke did not rise (unlike the prayers of the faithful, which rise like incense-smoke). There also was a great proliferation of pamphlets and what not undermining religion at the time and causing chaos and even wars (the writings being dragged across the field, leveling it.)

I've read certain writings from saints and others who live through these Liberal/Masonic revoultions and movements, and it seems pretty clear to me that is what Emmerich is referencing.

Here’s another one of the visions that is cited:

Quote:I saw several churches, or rather meeting-houses surmounted by weather-cocks, the congregations, disunited from the Church, running here and there like beggars hurrying to places where bread is distributed, having no connection with either the Church Triumphant or the Church Suffering. They were not in a regularly founded, living Church, one with the Church Militant, Suffering, and Triumphant, nor did they receive the Body of the Lord, but only bread. They who were in error through no fault of their own and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus Christ, were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion.

The part about Babel comes from this vision concerning the rise of secret societies in Spain and Portugal. Note, it’s not referring to Masses in many languages at all:
Quote:“This country [Portugal] was pretty tranquil compared with that of Saint Ignatius [ie Spain], which I now entered and found in frightful misery. Darkness lay over the whole land where reposes the treasure of the saint's graces and merits. I was at the central point and I recognized the place where long before I had had a vision of people cast into a fiery furnace around which their enemies were gathered, but they who had kindled the flames were themselves consumed by them. I saw unheard-of abominations spreading over the land, and my guide said to me: this is Babel. I saw throughout the whole country a chain of secret societies with influences at work like those of Babel. They were connected with the building of a tower by a web fine as that of a spider, which extended up through all ages. Its highest blossom was the diabolical woman Semiramis. I saw all going to ruin, sacred things destroyed, impiety and heresy flowing in. A civil war was brewing and a destructive internal crisis was at hand.”

Having read St. Anthony Mary Claret’s autobiography, this does seem like a dead-ringer for Spain later in his life.

Anyway, I hope that helps! Stuff like this is really frustrating because so man trads—who will be wary of any conspiracy or misinformation campaign in all other circumstances--often cut and paste things like this and other misleading things (the 101 Heresies of… lists, the Communion in the Hand list, that one Bugnini quote, etc.) without double checking their accuracy. Good trad arguments are tainted by stuff like this that gives the impression of a lack of integrity.
(06-16-2011, 04:13 PM)maso Wrote: [ -> ]We already got a jewish pope in the person of Paul VI. His mother was jewish and she purportedly converted on the eve of her wedding day.

According to what I've read she was a member of the minor rural nobility. Since there would be no Jews in the nobility, either Black or White, I seriously doubt the above.
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