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Augstine Baker Wrote:And I'm saying that Dogma and the Catholic Faith it is expressed in is more important than the Liturgy.

You are wrong. Analyze what you're saying. What is Liturgy? Liturgy is the official public worship of God as given to us by Christ and conserved by His Church. What is the primary purpose and end of doctrinal instruction? To lead souls into the worship, honor and love of their Creator.

Dogma is to know God. Liturgy is to worship God. Both the knowledge of God and the worship of God are equally necessary for salvation. Period. To divorce the two and force them into a superior/inferior hierarchy is not only foreign to Catholic thought, but bespeaks a total ignorance of the very nature of the Holy Mass.
Augstine Baker Wrote:Here is another: If I'm catechizing someone, I'm going to start with what must be believed

Which ought to include the absolute necessity of the Sacraments and the manner in which the grace to assent to the doctrines of the Church is principally derived from the merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered for all members of Holy Mother Church (in whatever approved liturgical rite). If you understood the nature of Liturgy as being "public" worship, this would be abundantly clear to you.
(08-01-2011, 01:41 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]Dogma is to know God. Liturgy is to worship God. Both the knowledge of God and the worship of God are equally necessary for salvation. Period. To divorce the two and force them into a superior/inferior hierarchy is not only foreign to Catholic thought, but bespeaks a total ignorance of the very nature of the Holy Mass.

What do you think of the Japanese Catholics who were without Mass for a few hundred years?
(08-01-2011, 01:54 AM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-01-2011, 01:41 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]Dogma is to know God. Liturgy is to worship God. Both the knowledge of God and the worship of God are equally necessary for salvation. Period. To divorce the two and force them into a superior/inferior hierarchy is not only foreign to Catholic thought, but bespeaks a total ignorance of the very nature of the Holy Mass.

What do you think of the Japanese Catholics who were without Mass for a few hundred years?

That's already been addressed several times.
A very good interview by two of my favourite personalities.

(08-01-2011, 01:41 AM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Augstine Baker Wrote:And I'm saying that Dogma and the Catholic Faith it is expressed in is more important than the Liturgy.

You are wrong. Analyze what you're saying. What is Liturgy? Liturgy is the official public worship of God as given to us by Christ and conserved by His Church. What is the primary purpose and end of doctrinal instruction? To lead souls into the worship, honor and love of their Creator.

Dogma is to know God. Liturgy is to worship God. Both the knowledge of God and the worship of God are equally necessary for salvation. Period. To divorce the two and force them into a superior/inferior hierarchy is not only foreign to Catholic thought, but bespeaks a total ignorance of the very nature of the Holy Mass.
Augstine Baker Wrote:Here is another: If I'm catechizing someone, I'm going to start with what must be believed

Which ought to include the absolute necessity of the Sacraments and the manner in which the grace to assent to the doctrines of the Church is principally derived from the merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered for all members of Holy Mother Church (in whatever approved liturgical rite). If you understood the nature of Liturgy as being "public" worship, this would be abundantly clear to you.

Why is it that you can have the Dogma without the Liturgy but not Liturgy without the Dogma?

The Liturgy itself wouldn't be possible without the Dogma.
Augstine Baker Wrote:Why is it that you can have the Dogma without the Liturgy

You can't. Am I speaking to rocks? How many times must I repeat myself in attempting to convey to you the reality of Liturgy being public worship? The graces and merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass extend to all members of Holy Mother Church even when they are not in physical attendance (through not fault of their own). If you moved to Antarctica for 5 years and never attended Mass once, you would still be receiving graces brought about by the merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is the nature of the Liturgy.

If you are unable to understand this then you are either being willfully obtuse. To say that worshiping God is inferior to any other act is vile.

Augstine Baker Wrote:The Liturgy itself wouldn't be possible without the Dogma.

That statement is devoid of theological sense. A man can be moved to worship God according to His rites before he possesses even the slightest comprehension of ecclesiology, christology, etc.
(08-01-2011, 04:39 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Augstine Baker Wrote:Why is it that you can have the Dogma without the Liturgy

You can't. Am I speaking to rocks? How many times must I repeat myself in attempting to convey to you the reality of Liturgy being public worship? The graces and merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass extend to all members of Holy Mother Church even when they are not in physical attendance (through not fault of their own). If you moved to Antarctica for 5 years and never attended Mass once, you would still be receiving graces brought about by the merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is the nature of the Liturgy.

If you are unable to understand this then you are either being willfully obtuse. To say that worshiping God is inferior to any other act is vile.

Augstine Baker Wrote:The Liturgy itself wouldn't be possible without the Dogma.

That statement is devoid of theological sense. A man can be moved to worship God according to His rites before he possesses even the slightest comprehension of ecclesiology, christology, etc.

How would you have the ability to compose the Liturgy without grammar, logic, philosophy and theology?
(08-01-2011, 04:54 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-01-2011, 04:39 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Augstine Baker Wrote:Why is it that you can have the Dogma without the Liturgy

You can't. Am I speaking to rocks? How many times must I repeat myself in attempting to convey to you the reality of Liturgy being public worship? The graces and merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass extend to all members of Holy Mother Church even when they are not in physical attendance (through not fault of their own). If you moved to Antarctica for 5 years and never attended Mass once, you would still be receiving graces brought about by the merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is the nature of the Liturgy.

If you are unable to understand this then you are either being willfully obtuse. To say that worshiping God is inferior to any other act is vile.

Augstine Baker Wrote:The Liturgy itself wouldn't be possible without the Dogma.

That statement is devoid of theological sense. A man can be moved to worship God according to His rites before he possesses even the slightest comprehension of ecclesiology, christology, etc.

How would you have the ability to compose the Liturgy without grammar, logic, philosophy and theology?

Who composed the Liturgy, Augstine?
(08-01-2011, 04:55 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-01-2011, 04:54 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-01-2011, 04:39 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Augstine Baker Wrote:Why is it that you can have the Dogma without the Liturgy

You can't. Am I speaking to rocks? How many times must I repeat myself in attempting to convey to you the reality of Liturgy being public worship? The graces and merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass extend to all members of Holy Mother Church even when they are not in physical attendance (through not fault of their own). If you moved to Antarctica for 5 years and never attended Mass once, you would still be receiving graces brought about by the merit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is the nature of the Liturgy.

If you are unable to understand this then you are either being willfully obtuse. To say that worshiping God is inferior to any other act is vile.

Augstine Baker Wrote:The Liturgy itself wouldn't be possible without the Dogma.

That statement is devoid of theological sense. A man can be moved to worship God according to His rites before he possesses even the slightest comprehension of ecclesiology, christology, etc.

How would you have the ability to compose the Liturgy without grammar, logic, philosophy and theology?

Who composed the Liturgy, Augstine?

It was written by a lot of different people.
(08-01-2011, 04:56 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-01-2011, 04:55 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]Who composed the Liturgy, Augstine?

It was written by a lot of different people.

Let's try that again: Who gave us the Liturgy, Augstine?
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