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I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments.

Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ:
Quote:And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18

Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

I really don't know how to counter this argument.

I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this.

St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all.

I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations.

I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue.

:shrug:
(08-04-2011, 06:00 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: [ -> ]I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments.

Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ:
Quote:And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18

Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

I really don't know how to counter this argument.



I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this.

St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all.

I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations.

I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue.

:shrug:


King Salomon says that there is a time for peace and that there is a time for war.  When the goddamned muslims wanted to invade Europe, at Lepanto they were defeated mainly due to the prayers of Pope Saint Pius V.
(08-04-2011, 06:00 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: [ -> ]I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments.

Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ:
Quote:And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18

Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

I really don't know how to counter this argument.

I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this.

St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all.

I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations.

I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue.

:shrug:

There is a difference between killing and murder

Christ said to Peter "put up again thy sword into it's place..." In doing so, he is indicating that there is a place for the sword
(08-04-2011, 06:17 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-04-2011, 06:00 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: [ -> ]I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments.

Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ:
Quote:And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18

Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

I really don't know how to counter this argument.



I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this.

St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all.

I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations.

I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue.

:shrug:


King Salomon says that there is a time for peace and that there is a time for war.  When the goddamned muslims . . .

Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.
(08-04-2011, 08:03 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-04-2011, 06:17 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-04-2011, 06:00 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: [ -> ]I'm no pacifist, but in discussing this topic I find that many seem to think that pacifism is Christian and that killing in all situations is against Christ's commandments.

Mainly pacifists cite the words of Christ:
Quote:And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Matthew 19:18

Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

I really don't know how to counter this argument.



I bring up points of self-defense and protection as well as stopping evil causes that destroy the faith, but pacifists always seem to come back to this.

St. Augustine and his Bellum iustum (Just War) helps if you're trying to debate whether a war is just or not, but if a person doesn't think any war is just it doesn't help at all.

I guess I'm looking for some biblical evidence or writings from the fathers which allow for killing in certain situations.

I have a feeling this is a lot easier to find then I think, I just have no experience with this issue.

:shrug:


King Salomon says that there is a time for peace and that there is a time for war.  When the goddamned muslims . . .

Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.

You call muslims human beings?  They are butchering christians worldwide.
(08-04-2011, 08:03 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ][quote='wulfrano' pid='841958' dateline='1312496230']

Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.

He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith.
(08-04-2011, 08:11 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-04-2011, 08:03 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ][quote='wulfrano' pid='841958' dateline='1312496230']

Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.

He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith.

Wow, Jovan!  Thanks again.  I love your sensible even-mindedness interpretation of things.
(08-04-2011, 08:14 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, Jovan!  Thanks again.  I love your sensible even-mindedness interpretation of things.

I try. I think it's neat that we can be at one another's throats on subjects we disagree on and remain friends on other things. That's what real friendship is about, amigo.
(08-04-2011, 08:24 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-04-2011, 08:14 PM)wulfrano Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, Jovan!  Thanks again.  I love your sensible even-mindedness interpretation of things.

I try. I think it's neat that we can be at one another's throats on subjects we disagree on and remain friends on other things. That's what real friendship is about, amigo.

I mean.. just read this: "He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith."
Dear Jovan:  With that you summarize what life is about.  It's about leaving errors and finding the True Faith.  Wow! 
(08-04-2011, 08:11 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-04-2011, 08:03 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Do not use that word, even if you don't actually intend what it intends by its meaning. It invokes the name of God in vain to curse human beings.

He did not say 'God damn the Muslims'. He simply stated the truth that they are damned by God unless they leave their errors and find the true Faith.

This is a Catholic forum. You can justify it in your own mind any way you see fit, but it is a word that is formulated to deliver a curse. Pointing out what he did not say doesn't make taking the name of God in vain to consider someone preemptively damned any more right.

I could say, "God damn it" in reference to my pen, and you could argue that there is no harm done because my pencil is a non-sentient object.

But again, I think you miss the principle of the issue.
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