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If you look over the Catholic World you see something very similiar in every country. It is Traditionalists and Conservatives that are upholding and fighting for the teachings and morals JESUS handed down to us. You see barely less than 1% of the World's Bishop's or priests fighting for the faith. For example in Mexico there is a heretical bishop on the loose who not only promotes the homosexual agenda but has his diocese's funds in bed with pro-abortion groups. Who has went after NOT ONE MEXICAN BISHOP but a group of Conservative Catholics trying to uphold the faith, WHERE IS THE GREAT POPEHuh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?  In Catholic college after college across America it is conservative laity fighting to stop blasphemous displays on these campus's ,again not a peep from any priest in any diocese WHERE IS THE GREAT POPE!!  While groups like TFP get attacked they aren't like your local bishop sitting on his ass doing nothing, no they are outside museums, theatres and anywhere to  fight for the honor of JESUS and MARY. They can say what they want about the SSPX being in schism (Laughable) but it wasn't the SSPX who allowed thousands of Children to be molested , let church teachings be lied about , no it was your worthless local bishop and your local priests. And anybody who has ever done any pro-life work knows that you rarely get a Bishop or Priest helping you.. THESE MEN (if you can call them that) DISGUST ME!!  They are cowardly as is being shown that even when the Pope says they can say the Latin Mass their more woried what the Bishop will do to their "career"  And for all you lovers of the papacy be serious please JOHN PAUL 2 and BENEDICT have been in power running the church for 33 years now and continue to let this go on. Why arent the Bishops Clark, Hubbard, and others removed!! >sad >sad >sad >sad >sad
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Separate paragraphs are helpful.
(08-11-2011, 06:00 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]If you look over the Catholic World you see something very similiar in every country. It is Traditionalists and Conservatives that are upholding and fighting for the teachings and morals JESUS handed down to us. You see barely less than 1% of the World's Bishop's or priests fighting for the faith. For example in Mexico there is a heretical bishop on the loose who not only promotes the homosexual agenda but has his diocese's funds in bed with pro-abortion groups. Who has went after NOT ONE MEXICAN BISHOP but a group of Conservative Catholics trying to uphold the faith, WHERE IS THE GREAT POPEHuh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?  In Catholic college after college across America it is conservative laity fighting to stop blasphemous displays on these campus's ,again not a peep from any priest in any diocese WHERE IS THE GREAT POPE!!   While groups like TFP get attacked they aren't like your local bishop sitting on his ass doing nothing, no they are outside museums, theatres and anywhere to  fight for the honor of JESUS and MARY. They can say what they want about the SSPX being in schism (Laughable) but it wasn't the SSPX who allowed thousands of Children to be molested , let church teachings be lied about , no it was your worthless local bishop and your local priests. And anybody who has ever done any pro-life work knows that you rarely get a Bishop or Priest helping you.. THESE MEN (if you can call them that) DISGUST ME!!  They are cowardly as is being shown that even when the Pope says they can say the Latin Mass their more woried what the Bishop will do to their "career"   And for all you lovers of the papacy be serious please JOHN PAUL 2 and BENEDICT have been in power running the church for 33 years now and continue to let this go on. Why arent the Bishops Clark, Hubbard, and others removed!! >sad >sad >sad >sad >sad

If I get banned for saying this, then so be it.  I will not keep silent while someone's soul is agonized like this.

Salus,

Why do you torture yourself with all of this?  Why do you look for the Faith where it doesn't exist?  The Novus Ordo is not Catholic, PERIOD - neither the liberal, conservative or so-called "indult traditional" parts of it.  They are a sect as are the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc. regardless of how well meaning, sincere or conservative they are.  The entire Novus Ordo laity and hierarchy divorced itself from the Catholic Faith with "Lumen Gentium" 49 years ago.  They are now more than 2 generations past being Catholic and are pretty much lost souls now.  The only thing we can do for them is pray that they will find the true Faith.  You need to save your own soul and you can't do that from the Novus Ordo whether it be the Indult, the Ordinary form, the Extraordinary form or the SSPX.   

Please, for your soul's sake, find a Catholic chapel, completely independent of the Novus Ordo.  Find a valid Catholic priest and receive the Sacraments from him.  Only through the love of Christ and the receiving of the Sacraments through the Roman Catholic Church will you find peace.   This calamitous time in the Church's life will pass.    I will pray for you.
Pray


(08-11-2011, 11:30 PM)NECatholic Wrote: [ -> ] 
If I get banned for saying this, then so be it.  I will not keep silent while someone's soul is agonized like this.

Salus,

Why do you torture yourself with all of this.  Why do you look for the Faith where it doesn't exist?  The Novus Ordo is not Catholic, PERIOD - neither the liberal, conservative or so-called "indult traditional" parts of it.  They are a sect as are the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc. regardless of how well meaning, sincere or conservative they are.  The entire Novus Ordo laity and hierarchy divorced itself from the Catholic Faith with "Lumen Gentium" 49 years ago.  They are now more than 2 generations past being Catholic and are pretty much lost souls now.  They only thing we can do for them is pray that they will find the true Faith.  You need to save your own soul and you can't do that from the Novus Ordo whether it be the Indult, the Ordinary form, the Extraordinary form or the SSPX.   

Please, for your soul's sake, find a Catholic chapel, completely independent of the Novus Ordo.  Find a valid Catholic priest and receive the Sacraments from him.  Only through the love of Christ and the receiving of the Sacraments through the Roman Catholic Church will you find peace.  This calamitous time in the Church's life will pass.    I will pray for you.
Pray

Life would be simpler if you were correct. Unfortunately perhaps, you are not correct. 

There are priests in the Novus Ordo faction of the Church that actually do hold the Catholic Faith. And there are still plenty of priests formed and ordained prior to the Council who haven't forgotten the essentials of the faith. 
They have also guided younger priests in many cases in traditional formation. You'd be surprised at some of the sermons that are given by some "Novus Ordo" conservative priests.


Despite the machinations of modernists, the sacraments are valid when done properly, so a person has to work harder in the Novus Ordo for them to be efficacious in their life.  It's not impossible, just difficult. 

The Novus Ordo rite of Mass is a horrible concoction but it's valid and many of the additions that TLM advocates hate are actually previously discarded elements (like the bidding prayers) that were retained by Protestants. 
So,yes it is partly Protestant, but most of Protestantism is stolen from Catholicism. The heresy is in the doctrinal exaggerations and denials, not necessarily liturgical elements. 

Find a chapel if you can, that's great.  Some people need a chapel and want to die going to it. That's fine.  I go to the chapel and I go to the diocesan masses.  The chapel is a temporary measure, a M.A.S.H. unit for Catholicism, you go there when you're injured.  Some stay exclusively and others get themselves better and go back and fight for the restoration of our parishes. 

I've met and found and been blessed by saintly SSPX priests and unfortunately encountered a few irrational jerks that should be in a monastery somewhere AWAY from people because they can easily ruin people's faith.  They do as much damage as any modernist could.  The only difference being the modernist makes you smile and you think he's nice and culpability is bit less clear. 

I've also met awful diocesan priests as well and I've met some saintly ones as well. (You've got to look for them, but when you find them, they need your prayers and support.) 

An SSPX priest once told me something along the lines of, "We want validation and we want to see change. But we live by faith. We have no promise of seeing anything get any better in our lifetime." 

We've got bad bishops. Nothing new except our shock and outrage. Pray for them and pray for good bishops in the future. Maybe our children or grandchildren will be the beneficiaries of our prayers today. 

And also, don't expect a "return to Tradition" in the sense of a Church identical to that of pre-Vatican II.  By its nature the Church is changed by Vatican II and there will be a necessary difference in how the Church looks in the future. Vatican II will leave scars and the Church will have to develop defenses that it did not have when Vatican II came to town and steamrolled over everything that Trent and Vatican I built in the Church. As Bishop Williamson said, the Church ran out of gas in many ways before the Council, and it was a victim of it's own success as Charles Coulombe once stated. The very fact that the reforms of the Council were not fought against by the majority of the people is proof of that. 

So, save your soul in the Catholic Church, if you need a chapel, go for it.  If you need a chapel for a short period of time or want to mix it into your experience with any other element within the Church, do that if it helps you get to Heaven. 
(08-11-2011, 06:00 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]If you look over the Catholic World you see something very similiar in every country. It is Traditionalists and Conservatives that are upholding and fighting for the teachings and morals JESUS handed down to us. You see barely less than 1% of the World's Bishop's or priests fighting for the faith. For example in Mexico there is a heretical bishop on the loose who not only promotes the homosexual agenda but has his diocese's funds in bed with pro-abortion groups. Who has went after NOT ONE MEXICAN BISHOP but a group of Conservative Catholics trying to uphold the faith, WHERE IS THE GREAT POPEHuh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?  In Catholic college after college across America it is conservative laity fighting to stop blasphemous displays on these campus's ,again not a peep from any priest in any diocese WHERE IS THE GREAT POPE!!   While groups like TFP get attacked they aren't like your local bishop sitting on his ass doing nothing, no they are outside museums, theatres and anywhere to  fight for the honor of JESUS and MARY. They can say what they want about the SSPX being in schism (Laughable) but it wasn't the SSPX who allowed thousands of Children to be molested , let church teachings be lied about , no it was your worthless local bishop and your local priests. And anybody who has ever done any pro-life work knows that you rarely get a Bishop or Priest helping you.. THESE MEN (if you can call them that) DISGUST ME!!  They are cowardly as is being shown that even when the Pope says they can say the Latin Mass their more woried what the Bishop will do to their "career"   And for all you lovers of the papacy be serious please JOHN PAUL 2 and BENEDICT have been in power running the church for 33 years now and continue to let this go on. Why arent the Bishops Clark, Hubbard, and others removed!! >sad >sad >sad >sad >sad

I agree, most bishops are utterly useless. They need prayers. I think Benedict is doing more than it might seem, criticizing people in public can often cause more harm than good. Bishop Fellays sermon recently on how the Vatican is full of conflict was very interesting and probably explains why it sometimes seems like Benedict isn't doing anything to help. Making Colleges more catholic isn't something that happens through the pope kindly asking them to stop spreading intellectual poison from Hell, but through years and years of work and prayer and sacrifice. But in principle I agree, we do kinda need a pope who isn't afraid to cut peoples heads off personally. I think that a pope like that, who in the process might reduce the church to half her size in the short run, would be a blessing.
(08-11-2011, 11:30 PM)NECatholic Wrote: [ -> ] You need to save your own soul and you can't do that from the Novus Ordo whether it be the Indult, the Ordinary form, the Extraordinary form or the SSPX.   

Are you seriousHuh??? You don't believe the SSPX to be valid. ?? Are you working for Michael Dimond or something??  :o:  Crazy
That is your opinion only.... I don't buy any of that, however I will also pray for your soul that you come to understand that the SSPX definitely has valid priests and accept Benedict the XVI as TRUE Pope no matter how flawed he, or any of the other Conciliar Popes were!!
(08-12-2011, 10:44 AM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2011, 11:30 PM)NECatholic Wrote: [ -> ] You need to save your own soul and you can't do that from the Novus Ordo whether it be the Indult, the Ordinary form, the Extraordinary form or the SSPX.   

Are you seriousHuh???
Have you never heard about "Intra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"? It's a dogma!
(08-12-2011, 12:23 PM)Freudentaumel Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-12-2011, 10:44 AM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2011, 11:30 PM)NECatholic Wrote: [ -> ] You need to save your own soul and you can't do that from the Novus Ordo whether it be the Indult, the Ordinary form, the Extraordinary form or the SSPX.   

Are you seriousHuh???
Have you never heard about "Intra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"? It's a dogma!

Yes, but what does that have anything to do with SSPX not having valid priestsHuh?
(08-12-2011, 12:05 AM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]There are priests in the Novus Ordo faction of the Church that actually do hold the Catholic Faith. And there are still plenty of priests formed and ordained prior to the Council who haven't forgotten the essentials of the faith. 
They have also guided younger priests in many cases in traditional formation. You'd be surprised at some of the sermons that are given by some "Novus Ordo" conservative priests.


Despite the machinations of modernists, the sacraments are valid when done properly, so a person has to work harder in the Novus Ordo for them to be efficacious in their life.  It's not impossible, just difficult. 

The Novus Ordo rite of Mass is a horrible concoction but it's valid and many of the additions that TLM advocates hate are actually previously discarded elements (like the bidding prayers) that were retained by Protestants. 
So,yes it is partly Protestant, but most of Protestantism is stolen from Catholicism. The heresy is in the doctrinal exaggerations and denials, not necessarily liturgical elements. 

Find a chapel if you can, that's great.  Some people need a chapel and want to die going to it. That's fine.  I go to the chapel and I go to the diocesan masses.  The chapel is a temporary measure, a M.A.S.H. unit for Catholicism, you go there when you're injured.  Some stay exclusively and others get themselves better and go back and fight for the restoration of our parishes. 

I've met and found and been blessed by saintly SSPX priests and unfortunately encountered a few irrational jerks that should be in a monastery somewhere AWAY from people because they can easily ruin people's faith.  They do as much damage as any modernist could.  The only difference being the modernist makes you smile and you think he's nice and culpability is bit less clear. 

I've also met awful diocesan priests as well and I've met some saintly ones as well. (You've got to look for them, but when you find them, they need your prayers and support.) 

An SSPX priest once told me something along the lines of, "We want validation and we want to see change. But we live by faith. We have no promise of seeing anything get any better in our lifetime." 

We've got bad bishops. Nothing new except our shock and outrage. Pray for them and pray for good bishops in the future. Maybe our children or grandchildren will be the beneficiaries of our prayers today. 

And also, don't expect a "return to Tradition" in the sense of a Church identical to that of pre-Vatican II.  By its nature the Church is changed by Vatican II and there will be a necessary difference in how the Church looks in the future. Vatican II will leave scars and the Church will have to develop defenses that it did not have when Vatican II came to town and steamrolled over everything that Trent and Vatican I built in the Church. As Bishop Williamson said, the Church ran out of gas in many ways before the Council, and it was a victim of it's own success as Charles Coulombe once stated. The very fact that the reforms of the Council were not fought against by the majority of the people is proof of that. 

So, save your soul in the Catholic Church, if you need a chapel, go for it.  If you need a chapel for a short period of time or want to mix it into your experience with any other element within the Church, do that if it helps you get to Heaven.   

Excellent post, Gerard and a very sensible approach.  I agree with the OP that there is much common ground between traditional and conservative Catholics.  It is a shame to expend energy fighting with each other that could be better spent on other things.
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