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(08-24-2011, 02:12 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-24-2011, 12:37 PM)iona_scribe Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe since this is such an exceptional situation, Pope Benedict will actually make an ex cathedra declaration mandating the most traditional interpretation of VII possible, and correcting what can't be given an interpretation in light of tradition.  Not likely, but it would be exiting to see!

An ex cathedra definition or document of definitions (anathemas, condemned propositions) has to be specific in what is taught or condemned.  Declaring that Vatican II must be strictly interpreted in light of Tradition doesn't mean much if it doesn't specify exactly how Vatican II conforms with Tradition.  What is needed is a new syllabus which succinctly teaches Catholic doctrine and which uses long-standing theological terms employed by the Church, as such terms have very specific meanings and allow little to no room for misinterpretation (not coincidentally, Vatican II avoided such terminology, which is a prime reason why we're even in this mess in the first place).

Yes, this. I'd like to see some sort of corrective document using proper terminology come out of this.
The posts on the article are absolutely crazy.  I think it's known that I dislike the SSPX in no uncertain terms because of their actions regarding jurisdiction, authority etc.  But these nuts are taking it too far.  There are legitimate points of criticism to be levelled against the SSPX but heresy is not one of them.  Though seeing one of those posters championing the values of the Enlightenment.. it is hardly a surprise.

They attack the SSPX for disobedience and heresy and yet champion another for disobedience and heresy?  They think a Council could judge and remove a Pope?  They dare assault the authority of Peter's Throne?

One day people like this should simply be locked up until they learn better in the hopes that their poison will not spread to innocent Catholics and ruin society.
(08-24-2011, 03:31 PM)City Smurf Wrote: [ -> ]hey think a Council could judge and remove a Pope?

Actually I believe a church council could declare a sitting Pope a heretic, which would mean the seat would be vacant (the council would not remove the Pope, the Pope would have removed himself by his heresy. However, I believe only a church council could rule a sitting pope a heretic):

"In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off.  A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub. St. Antoninus (†1459)
But who decides when a pope is a heretic?  No authority on earth can judge the pope, he's the Supreme Pontiff, the highest temporal authority.  A council cannot judge a pope, but they can judge someone who was once pope but fallen into heresy, then who judges when the pope-who-is-not-a-pope is a heretic?

That all simply doesn't make any sense to me.  Either a Council is the equal to the Bishop of Rome, or the pope is the pope even when he falls into heresy.
(08-24-2011, 04:21 PM)City Smurf Wrote: [ -> ]But who decides when a pope is a heretic?  No authority on earth can judge the pope, he's the Supreme Pontiff, the highest temporal authority.  A council cannot judge a pope, but they can judge someone who was once pope but fallen into heresy, then who judges when the pope-who-is-not-a-pope is a heretic?

That all simply doesn't make any sense to me.  Either a Council is the equal to the Bishop of Rome, or the pope is the pope even when he falls into heresy.

I might start a thread on this if Vox okays it, but for now lets stay on topic Smile 
(08-24-2011, 10:47 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]So basically the lesson here is that no matter what Pope Benedict does people will complain. 
You bet,
People who don't trust BXVI are deaf or illiterate, perhaps both. Or, just in denial.  If these people can't see what is happening with H.H.'s  elevation to prominent positions men of a much more traditional bent than we've seen since VII, and the things these churchmen have been saying, let them sink into their despair. Ranjith, Levada, and others are making statements one would expect to hear form the pulpits of SSPX chapels. But the naysayers are in denial. I suppose these people think there is a switch on the wall of the pope's office he can just flip and make the Modernists disappear, and all the bishops who hate the TLM start hungering for it.

The Church has been infested, the seminaries have poisoned the truly well intended, the mainstream contemporary parishioner doesn't know any better. It's really sickening to see these bitter, hardhearted fools pissing on the seeds H.H. is planting instead of watering them with their prayers for H.H. and for the success of a return to sanity and tradition.

The "spirit of VII" may have given them reason to forge a distrust in Rome, but those days are soon to be over, and they need to get over it. This mindset of thinking that no Roman Catholic can call him/herself such while accepting, trusting,and embracing the pope is old hat. The defense of it no longer hold weight.

God bless those who will join H.H. in reclaiming the Church, and prayers for the children of those who in the days ahead, confine these children to their little cult compounds, full of  paranoia and anger.

5 years ago, I'd have never typed these words. But I can now see what good this pope is for the Church. May God grant him many more years.
Pray

(08-24-2011, 05:24 PM)Dominus est Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-24-2011, 10:47 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]So basically the lesson here is that no matter what Pope Benedict does people will complain. 
You bet,
People who don't trust BXVI are deaf or illiterate, perhaps both. Or, just in denial.  If these people can't see what is happening with H.H.'s  elevation to prominent positions men of a much more traditional bent than we've seen since VII,  Pray

I'm not worried about what the Pope is going to do... I'm sure he is trying everything in his power to grant the SSPX jurisdiction wuithout pushing any compromise on the Traditionalists... What I worry about is some of the "Modernist" Bishops and Cardinals surrounding him that will try to make it very difficult for +Fellay and Co. to keep their positions with regard to the VII issues they don't accept.

I try to pray for the Pope everyday!!@ Pray
(08-24-2011, 06:27 PM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not worried about what the Pope is going to do... I'm sure he is trying everything in his power to grant the SSPX jurisdiction wuithout pushing any compromise on the Traditionalists... What I worry about is some of the "Modernist" Bishops and Cardinals surrounding him that will try to make it very difficult for +Fellay and Co. to keep their positions with regard to the VII issues they don't accept.

I try to pray for the Pope everyday!!@ Pray

True, but they are already making it difficult.  But at least those who hate the SSPX will lose ammo. No more "the SSPX clergy are suspended" "the SSPX Mass is illicit"

Let them stomp their feet and whine. Let it be the Modernist and Liberal; who is out of line and seen as disobedient and not in communion with the wishes of the Bishop of Rome. Even a poorly catechized NO parishioner sees the pope as the leader of the Church.

I can't speak for  Bishop Fellay, but if it were me, I'd see this as an opportunity to put things back in the Church that were taken away. Let trads be the infiltrators this time around. Make it so a parent who would love to send their child to an SSPX school, but who hesitates because of the current status, can now feel free to do so.

And the Catholics who sympathize with the SSPX, but out of a justifiable (in their eyes) obedience to Rome, won't join a SSPX parish. Finally they can, because the pope says it's ok. Let those benefactors of the Society make up their minds. Trust Bishop Fellay and those who stand with him, or begone, off to congregate with those who trust no one but those who agree with their notion that all is lost and the true RCC will never again be found in Rome. Their money will be replaced over time by those who will now feel no hesitation to support the Society.

An acceptance of an agreement, without an acceptance of heresy and error, is not a discarding of all that has been fought for. It's a rolling up of the sleeves and doing what trads have done all through the Church's history. That is, fighting off heresy and errors right smack in the mist of those promoting them.  I could go on, but imho, for all the good fruit the work of the Society, it will surely taste so much sweeter without the (arguably unjust) stigma hanging over the Society.

I want so badly to be able to become a member of my local SSPX chapel. But I can't until the pope I love so much for what he is doing, says I can without reservation.



Quote:One didn't have to be psychic to see this one was coming.  It's beginning to look like this Vatican will bend over for any group who maintains the primacy of an all male clerical caste, even if that comes with 'baggage' like anti semitism or a 'tepid' enthusiasm for the primacy of the papacy and the documents of Vatican II.  In the case of the Anglican ordinariate, the price has included married male clergy.  It will be interesting to see how the ever so traditional  SSPX deals with that issue in their brother Catholics.  I suppose their common love of Gregorian chant and triumphalist liturgy will transcend such difficulties.  The hypocrisy is mind boggling.


How long is it going to take before Western Catholics who were raised in, or freed by, the People of God vision of Vatican II realize their is no future for this vision under this current hierarchy.  This current Church is not about the People of God, it is about some Men of the Cloth.  That signal message is being thrown in our faces not just by the kind of priesthood Benedict affirms, but by the dark side of that same form of priesthood in it's sexual abuse and cover up phase.  How many ways must the Spirit give us this message?


Over at Catholica Australia, contributor Tom McMahon has a series about the recent American Catholic Conference in Detroit.  In this latest installment Tom has inserted an email sent to him by Robert Blair Kaiser who attended the conference.  Kaiser wrote the book 'Cardinal Mahoney' which describes the rise of an  autochthonous American Catholic Church.  Here's some of what he wrote to Tom McMahon:

".....But it was so much like all the national CTA [Call to Action] conventions I ever attended: inconsequential. Those 1800 who attended endorsed a Catholic Bill of Rights, but, to me, it was just a wish list, with no plan attached to it that told us how we'd get our wishes. So, the conference fell far short of what I had hoped for, the launching of an autochthonous American Catholic Church.

I realize this is something like a critic not liking a book or a movie because it isn't the book or movie HE would have written. Nevertheless, I was sad that I could not convince the organizers (some of the original 12 who founded the ACC) that the idea of an American Catholic Church was worth pursuing, no matter how long it takes......

I hope much sooner than later, Vatican II Catholics will get the message that there is no room in the Vatican Inn for the vision of church espoused in Vatican II.  There is unrest about this all over the Catholic globe but talking isn't going to change the direction of the current Vatican.  This is not just unrest about a few doctrinal issues but a huge gap in understanding about the very nature of the Church itself and the very God/Jesus that view of Church implies.  The view of Church described in Vatican II does not deserve to be steamrolled under the weight of an all male triumphalist priesthood with it's junior high notions of God in the sky heaven and the rest of us in some subterranean hell.  It's time, perhaps more than time, VII Catholics say enough is enough and we will go our own way.  Waiting for papal permission is a fool's errand.

Oh and if the above isn't enough to give you heartburn.  St Peter's square is to be completely refurbished according to this article from Digital Journal.

"The project will encompass all of the square’s 376 columns and pillars, 140 statues and 1,200 metres in terraces and cornices, as well as the Clementina and Gregoriana fountains and the Egyptian obelisk in the middle."

The renovation work which is being funded through donations from "generous sponsors" will also restore Bermini's original design and colors according to the head of Vatican technical services, Pier Carlo Cuscianna.

I wonder who these generous sponsors are, but I can make a pretty good guess one is the Knights of Columbus--a group whose current leadership would not be too terribly interested in an autochthonous Vatican II church which was willing to give up the power and the glory of Vatican city.

http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.bl...other.html
(08-24-2011, 11:32 AM)City Smurf Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-24-2011, 11:28 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]Although really this is no different than than a Latin bishop basically no say over what an Eastern Rite church does in his own diocese.  

I don't think it's really comparable.
Oh, but the SSPX and the Orthodox are?
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