FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Social upheaval before V2
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
My fiance and I were having a discussion about pre V2 Catholicism, post V2 Catholicism, and weather V2 was the cause of the social upheaval or if it was the result of the beginnings of it. An attempt by the church to stick it's finger in the crack in the dam so to speak.
He thinks that V2 was a result of the social chaos. That vocations were already declining, that young Catholics were already jumping ship, and so V2 was trying to keep the faith from going under completely.
I take the track that V2, if not necessarily being the cause of the upheaval, it certainly did nothing to stop it, and even made it worse.
He thinks it's rather arrogant to think that is and arrogant attitude.

So, what do you all think? Did V2 cause the upheaval or was it an attempt to keep it at bay?
(09-07-2011, 06:56 PM)knittycat Wrote: [ -> ]My fiance and I were having a discussion about pre V2 Catholicism, post V2 Catholicism, and weather V2 was the cause of the social upheaval or if it was the result of the beginnings of it. An attempt by the church to stick it's finger in the crack in the dam so to speak.
He thinks that V2 was a result of the social chaos. That vocations were already declining, that young Catholics were already jumping ship, and so V2 was trying to keep the faith from going under completely.
I take the track that V2, if not necessarily being the cause of the upheaval, it certainly did nothing to stop it, and even made it worse.
He thinks it's rather arrogant to think that is and arrogant attitude.

So, what do you all think? Did V2 cause the upheaval or was it an attempt to keep it at bay?

Yes
So, V2 was an attempt to keep the social chaos at bay, but instead made it worse?
(09-07-2011, 06:59 PM)knittycat Wrote: [ -> ]So, V2 was an attempt to keep the social chaos at bay, but instead made it worse?

It was used as a hammer by the heretics in the Church.  "Oh, well, Vatican Two changed that...."  Many parish churches built in the early 60s were built with the New Order of the Mass in mind.  They were going to change things whether approved by the council or not.  Many of the Documents of Vatican II actually directly refuted the "Spirit of Vatican II."

(I'll answer more fully when I get a chance.)
(09-07-2011, 06:56 PM)knittycat Wrote: [ -> ]So, what do you all think? Did V2 cause the upheaval or was it an attempt to keep it at bay?

I think it is a good question and one that gets over simplified by a lot of us. Ask me tomorrow and I might change my mind again. But, I think I have to side more with what you report your fiance has said. I believe they were trying to stay relevant to a modern world and miscalculated. 

I'm reminded about something Orwell once wrote. He was talking about goosestepping. He said the English could never do it and he is quite right. He said even if they tried it and some commander thought it a good idea, the people along the parade route would laugh. How is this relevant? Do I think the mystery of our Faith is the same as goosestepping? Of course not. However, I think there were many people, actually the majority of non-Catholics, who thought our Faith a lot of hocus-pocus and nonsense. And I think they kind of laughed at us in the same manner.

This past Memorial Day I was at a barbeque and someone mentioned that there is no more animosity towards Catholics these days in the US. And that he thought it a good thing. I said, the reason there is no more animosity is that we (I mean this in the greater collective of Catholics way) no longer stand for anything. What is there to be troubled about or to look at with suspicion by these heretics or atheists. They have watered the religion down to nothing.

Moral of the story? You can't please everyone all the time and stay true to yourself. Or to put it much better let's listen to what our Lord says in St. Matthew's Gospel.

[13]You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men. [14] You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.

Check out this newsreel from 1948 where Pope Pius XII greeted young women from Italy. It is titled "Pope Receives World Youth".

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?i...vR-M.email

Sorry I can't embed video, as it is not from youtube. But, very interesting site.

Contrast that with photos from this year's World Youth Day:

[Image: 432_2WYD-07.jpg]

[Image: 432_2WYD-03.jpg]

[Image: 431_WYD-03.jpg]

[Image: 431_WYD-02.jpg]
Someone once explained Vatican II as the church's attempt to deal with the fact that Catholic monarchs no longer existed and governments could no longer be relied upon to support the faith. Vatican II was an attempt to use the Church to change modern society. But, the net result was that modern society changed the Church instead.

Adam Wayne brought up a really good point about his friend stating Catholics are no longer persecuted. The changes in the Church since Vatican II made the faith much more friendly toward Protestantism. Most American Protestants no longer have a problem with Catholics because they don't see how they are too different from Protestants. Now if the Church begins to move closer to tradition that's going to change drastically.
I was thinking the other day there actually isn't anything wrong with true ecumenism.  Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ was a great way to reach out to Protestant that did not make us hide our own beliefs. The problem since the 1960s is that in reaching out we have downplayed important aspect parts of our faith.  not make us hide our own beliefs. The problem since the 1960s is that in reaching out we have downplayed important aspect parts of our faith.
(09-07-2011, 06:56 PM)knittycat Wrote: [ -> ]My fiance and I were having a discussion about pre V2 Catholicism, post V2 Catholicism, and weather V2 was the cause of the social upheaval or if it was the result of the beginnings of it. An attempt by the church to stick it's finger in the crack in the dam so to speak.
He thinks that V2 was a result of the social chaos. That vocations were already declining, that young Catholics were already jumping ship, and so V2 was trying to keep the faith from going under completely.
I take the track that V2, if not necessarily being the cause of the upheaval, it certainly did nothing to stop it, and even made it worse.
He thinks it's rather arrogant to think that is and arrogant attitude.

So, what do you all think? Did V2 cause the upheaval or was it an attempt to keep it at bay?


read ABLs books...this has been in the works since at least the French revolution.   the roots go farther back than that... St. Pius X wrote of it and worried about it...and attempted to halt or slow it....guess he slowed it.

but the revolts do not come from nothing...something must ahve been wrong to cause so many to either A actively revolt...or B passively revolt by allowing it.


with out proff or having lived then my bet is the sanctimonious asses that you see all around you are the cause of the upheaval...people tire of the BS heaped on century after century...

additionally you cannot understand what happened in the twentieth century without understanding the fallout of WW1...and then later WW2...those two back to back like that sapped from Europe most of their good young men and ruined two generations....two generations trying to fix the problems that sunk them...and then producing the next gen...the baby boomers....who could blame our grand parents in the "greatest gen" for wanting to have their kids insulated from that hell at all costs...and so the seeds were laid for the boomers...no matter what you think of them.


in fact the ideas that are clearly expressed by boomers were also clearly expressed by my great grandmother who was of the WW1 generation...so the roots were deep.


And the fact is that there is a great deal of truth and good to be gleaned from the upheavals of the late 19th and all of the 29th ceturies...to reject it whole sale as an aberration to be swept under the rug or tossed on the dust bin of history will only ensure that it happens again...and the hopes that a better generation takes those lessons and adds them to the deposit of our cultural wisdom....


but I don't think we'll have to wait.  The current generations...no matter what a few goofy trads want, will not toss all the good had from the Age of Aquarius in the trash...and the wisdom harvested will continue to make us richer as a culture...

if only we could get out from under the yolk of socialism and it's off shoots...but even here we have trads clamoring for this or that version of statism to ensure a check...moral decay at what should be the heart of the resurgence....the good and the bad is all around us...and the good is so overwhelming that the weak only see the bad...because eit gives them some sort of purpose...
(09-07-2011, 08:40 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]Adam Wayne brought up a really good point about his friend stating Catholics are no longer persecuted. The changes in the Church since Vatican II made the faith much more friendly toward Protestantism. Most American Protestants no longer have a problem with Catholics because they don't see how they are too different from Protestants. Now if the Church begins to move closer to tradition that's going to change drastically.


Not so.

one branch of my grandparents had no problems...and their parents had no problems related to being Catholic...and that was in BOSTON...home of the Wasp Yankee at the turn of the last century


none of my other grand parents or my immediate family had any problems...even in the South...Virginia and the like..

My Hessian ancestors had no problems either when they settled in New Jersey after deciding to stay after the War

As we move toward tradition nothing will change in our relations with prots unless we let the sanctomons be in charge...then certainly...


This is all an outcome from the wisdom of the 30 years war where the West finally got smart and said in unison..."enough"
(09-07-2011, 08:16 PM)Adam Wayne Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-07-2011, 06:56 PM)knittycat Wrote: [ -> ]So, what do you all think? Did V2 cause the upheaval or was it an attempt to keep it at bay?

I think it is a good question and one that gets over simplified by a lot of us. Ask me tomorrow and I might change my mind again. But, I think I have to side more with what you report your fiance has said. I believe they were trying to stay relevant to a modern world and miscalculated. 

I'm reminded about something Orwell once wrote. He was talking about goosestepping. He said the English could never do it and he is quite right. He said even if they tried it and some commander thought it a good idea, the people along the parade route would laugh. How is this relevant? Do I think the mystery of our Faith is the same as goosestepping? Of course not. However, I think there were many people, actually the majority of non-Catholics, who thought our Faith a lot of hocus-pocus and nonsense. And I think they kind of laughed at us in the same manner.

This past Memorial Day I was at a barbeque and someone mentioned that there is no more animosity towards Catholics these days in the US. And that he thought it a good thing. I said, the reason there is no more animosity is that we (I mean this in the greater collective of Catholics way) no longer stand for anything. What is there to be troubled about or to look at with suspicion by these heretics or atheists. They have watered the religion down to nothing.

Moral of the story? You can't please everyone all the time and stay true to yourself. Or to put it much better let's listen to what our Lord says in St. Matthew's Gospel.

[13]You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men. [14] You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.
THIS
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6