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(09-09-2011, 08:57 PM)Laetare Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-09-2011, 07:58 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know about other orders.  Would you share what you see as Franciscan charisms that are poison to you?

The whole focus of the Order as I understand it does not appeal to me; for one, it seems to paint poverty as a goal in of itself, whereas Dominicans never call it an end. Also, their blackfriar peers are more naturally focused on study and intellectual contemplation, placing abstract Truth above the Franciscan abstract Love. Bonaventure says only when we love do we see the truth, but Aquinas says that seeing the truth, be it the factual truth, leads immediately to true love of that truth, because truth is good (it has being), and good is diffusive automatically. Franciscan spirituality tends towards emotionalism and noise, from my experience.

I've always thought of Franciscan spirituality as more emotional and this did not appeal to me.  I was very surprised when I ended up as a Franciscan.
I guess that on one side of the spectrum is charity giving poverty stricken mendicants. On the other side are the contemplating, meditative and silence vowing monastics.

I would probably fall centre right; assuming a left right spectrum.
US, I think the left/right model isn't very applicable here.
(09-10-2011, 01:41 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: [ -> ]US, I think the left/right model isn't very applicable here.

Why not. The left right spectrum in this instance is not in any way for political or 'right wrong' argument. It is only for use of studying the relation between the two philosophies.

(09-10-2011, 01:28 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]I've always thought of Franciscan spirituality as more emotional and this did not appeal to me.  I was very surprised when I ended up as a Franciscan.

My dear OFM Conv. friend said I'm more of a St. Anthony or a St. Bonaventure, apparently nothing like St. Francis. The glory of the Incarnation which I have been attracted to lately is perhaps a sign that I ought to look up the Holy-Child-carryin'-Anthony!

It has always seemed obvious to me that a human being ought to follow the spirituality exactly opposite to the one which titillates their soul. Since I am inherently a dark, brooding, melancholic, intellectualised (vs. faithful) person, the Dominicans would merely serve to exacerbate it. Conventual Franciscans are opposite to them in many ways. In order for a person to become balanced, he must run away from himself to that which is opposite (at least for a little while), that he may see himself from the other side. A stoic, stodgy Englishman should go to Italy among happy, simple peasants, for example. Just so, I myself ought to leave the elite white tower of Dominicans and spend time in Franciscan spirituality merely to see myself and God better from another side.

Franciscan love for the human being is very impressive, it must be said. They've always pulled the Dominicans out of their hives of contemplation to live in the world a little, and the Dominicans always pulled them out of their poor houses to contemplate abstract truth! To be consecrated to a saint's name, now glorified by God in Heaven, and to be attached to a suffix, is the height of expression of who you are! Since only the saints are perfected human beings, now without stain or blemish, they alone can help you see what being a true man or true woman is, praying for you and directing you to their lives for God's sake!  ;D
(09-10-2011, 01:42 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-10-2011, 01:41 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: [ -> ]US, I think the left/right model isn't very applicable here.

Why not. The left right spectrum in this instance is not in any way for political or 'right wrong' argument. It is only for use of studying the relation between the two philosophies.


It's not applicable because we can and must be both.  We must leave our attachment to things to serve God.  We serve others only to serve God.  We would be willing to suffer anything in order to be close to God, to let Him draw us to Him without putting in any obstances in the way.  Poverty, detachment from the world, silence, contemplation -- it's all related.

On a left-right spectrum, you would expect that as you leave one extreme you necessarily approach the other.  Rich and poor, tall and short, generous and stingy, proud and humble.  They are opposites of a sort.  But poor and contemplative?  They go together!

Carmelites emphasize love and contemplation but to do this, they must be poor.

Franciscans must be poor, but they do this for the love of God.

Both of them study even though they are not Dominicans, and we have Franciscan and Carmelite Doctors of the Church.
(09-10-2011, 02:33 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-10-2011, 01:42 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-10-2011, 01:41 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: [ -> ]US, I think the left/right model isn't very applicable here.

Why not. The left right spectrum in this instance is not in any way for political or 'right wrong' argument. It is only for use of studying the relation between the two philosophies.


It's not applicable because we can and must be both.  We must leave our attachment to things to serve God.  We serve others only to serve God.  We would be willing to suffer anything in order to be close to God, to let Him draw us to Him without putting in any obstances in the way.  Poverty, detachment from the world, silence, contemplation -- it's all related.

On a left-right spectrum, you would expect that as you leave one extreme you necessarily approach the other.  Rich and poor, tall and short, generous and stingy, proud and humble.  They are opposites of a sort.  But poor and contemplative?  They go together!

Carmelites emphasize love and contemplation but to do this, they must be poor.

Franciscans must be poor, but they do this for the love of God.

Both of them study even though they are not Dominicans, and we have Franciscan and Carmelite Doctors of the Church.

This
and some orders crossed over with ease. its a modern idea to have neat clean cut demarcation lines in this. not a catholic one. some orders like the emercedinians were both a mendicant and a military order depending ont he time place and mission. yet they used first the Benedictine rule then changed to the Augustinian which better suited their charasm. then you have the Jesuits whom from the beginning to now always never fit in wee categories.left right is a silly way to speak about tit.
sip
(09-10-2011, 02:42 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]and some orders crossed over with ease. its a modern idea to have neat clean cut demarcation lines in this. not a catholic one. some orders like the emercedinians were both a mendicant and a military order depending ont he time place and mission. yet they used first the Benedictine rule then changed to the Augustinian which better suited their charasm. then you have the Jesuits whom from the beginning to now always never fit in wee categories.left right is a silly way to speak about tit.
sip

Right on all the spiritualities are just ways of living the one true spirituality which is Our Lord's.
(09-10-2011, 02:31 PM)Laetare Wrote: [ -> ]My dear OFM Conv. friend said I'm more of a St. Anthony or a St. Bonaventure, apparently nothing like St. Francis. The glory of the Incarnation which I have been attracted to lately is perhaps a sign that I ought to look up the Holy-Child-carryin'-Anthony!

It has always seemed obvious to me that a human being ought to follow the spirituality exactly opposite to the one which titillates their soul. Since I am inherently a dark, brooding, melancholic, intellectualised (vs. faithful) person, the Dominicans would merely serve to exacerbate it. Conventual Franciscans are opposite to them in many ways. In order for a person to become balanced, he must run away from himself to that which is opposite (at least for a little while), that he may see himself from the other side. A stoic, stodgy Englishman should go to Italy among happy, simple peasants, for example. Just so, I myself ought to leave the elite white tower of Dominicans and spend time in Franciscan spirituality merely to see myself and God better from another side.

I think this is an important insight.  I am an intense, scholarly, intellectual type.  My natural inclination would be to live in an ivory tower and I do not think it would have been good for me.  I can can see how much I have benefited from the more earthy experiences of my life.  (Thousands of diaper changes come to mind. Smile )  Interestingly, my husband is a third order Dominican.  We are constantly having these "compare and contrast" discussions of the two orders.
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