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(09-16-2011, 02:35 PM)archdiocesan Wrote: [ -> ]Quanta Cura isn't a Church council.

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I did specify Church councils. If people want to discuss tensions with previous papal encyclicals, that can be a separate thread. Perhaps.

As was noted in my post...

Wow...The Asshole factor in F.E seems to have gone up significantly lately...
Pope Eugene IV council of florence Cantate Domino

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Ie the Catholic Church is the ONLY church

Vatican II says in Lumen Gentium that it's part of the church not THE CHURCH
Traditionalmom,

Can you match up the supposedly contradictory sentences/phrases?

Matthew,

My apologies, but I thought a bit of early thread fascism might prevent this degenerating into a free-for-all.

Dan,

It is very interesting to hear what Msgr Gherardini thinks. Could you cite some examples of contradictory passages from Vatican II vs previous Church councils?
(09-16-2011, 02:53 PM)archdiocesan Wrote: [ -> ]Traditionalmom,

Can you match up the supposedly contradictory sentences/phrases?

Matthew,

My apologies, but I thought a bit of early thread fascism might prevent this degenerating into a free-for-all.

Dan,

It is very interesting to hear what Msgr Gherardini thinks. Could you cite some examples of contradictory passages from Vatican II vs previous Church councils?
Archdiocesan
I would have to reread the book.
Unfortunately I do not have the time right now.
If you PM me I will give you the address of where you can get the book.
Mons Gherardini points out at least 20 places in the various VII documents where it contradicts previous and perrenial Church teaching.
I knew that VII contradicted several previous teachings but until I read the book I had no idea how much opposed to many points of previous teaching the documents where.
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end.

(Lumen Gentium)

Sure it tries to backtrack with "well we want to be all united under one shepherd BUT they are consecrated by baptism and sanctified by the Holy Spirit...what conclusion can one draw except that they can be saved outside the Catholic Church in their obstinate heresy and schism...contradicting Pope Eugen IV council of Florence statements...
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