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Full Version: Another video of Fr. Barron: Good atheists can be saved. Vatican II told us so.
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This guy is getting more and more disturbing as I listen to his videos. 

In this one, "fullness of truth" vs. "varying degress of participation in truth" (not error mixed with truth)

And of course, he says that Vatican II says that non-Christians and even Atheists can be saved if they follow their conscience. 

Who would've thought  that the conscience correct or not, was salvific and not the sanctifying grace of God? 

Quote:We must say it clearly: such a concept is radically opposed to Catholic dogma. The Church is the one ark of salvation, and we must not be afraid to affirm it. You have often heard it said, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"--a dictum which offends contemporary minds. It is easy to believe that this doctrine is no longer in effect, that it has been dropped. It seems excessively severe.

Yet nothing, in fact, has changed; nothing can be changed in this area. Our Lord did not found a number of churches: He founded only One. There is only one Cross by which we can be saved, and that Cross has been given to the Catholic Church. It has not been given to others. To His Church, His mystical bride, Christ has given all graces. No grace in the world, no grace in the history of humanity is distributed except through her.

Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth.

Archbishop Lefebvre
I believe Fr. Barron is referring to atheists who follow their conscience in a society where it becomes less likely one will bump into a "real" Christian, or even any sort of Christian. If you're brought up with only atheism, but you try your best to follow "the truth", you are inevitably going to follow something our Lord, God the Son, spoke into existence as the Word. The way he presents it is very unfortunate, but there is some merit in thinking on the idea. Obviously, though, an atheist with good will is almost a contradiction in terms. :(
Hebrews 11:6 Wrote:"But without faith it is impossible to please God."
Romans 10:8-10 Wrote:"But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach. For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation."

No-one can be saved without belief in the divinity of Christ and in the Holy Trinity, not to mention sorrow for one's sins.

And certainly no-once can be saved without knowing it, that is, in ignorance.
(09-20-2011, 10:40 PM)Laetare Wrote: [ -> ]I believe Fr. Barron is referring to atheists who follow their conscience in a society where it becomes less likely one will bump into a "real" Christian, or even any sort of Christian. If you're brought up with only atheism, but you try your best to follow "the truth", you are inevitably going to follow something our Lord, God the Son, spoke into existence as the Word. The way he presents it is very unfortunate, but there is some merit in thinking on the idea. Obviously, though, an atheist with good will is almost a contradiction in terms. :(
Romans 1:20 Wrote:For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Although, the idea that of participation in Truth is just a part of a participatory metaphysic, so I don't think that aspect of the video is problematic.
(09-20-2011, 10:36 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:We must say it clearly: such a concept is radically opposed to Catholic dogma. The Church is the one ark of salvation, and we must not be afraid to affirm it. You have often heard it said, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"--a dictum which offends contemporary minds. It is easy to believe that this doctrine is no longer in effect, that it has been dropped. It seems excessively severe.

Yet nothing, in fact, has changed; nothing can be changed in this area. Our Lord did not found a number of churches: He founded only One. There is only one Cross by which we can be saved, and that Cross has been given to the Catholic Church. It has not been given to others. To His Church, His mystical bride, Christ has given all graces. No grace in the world, no grace in the history of humanity is distributed except through her.

Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth.

Archbishop Lefebvre

Wow, this is awesome. I was discussing this idea last night with a bishop. Thanks for posting it, Someone1776!
He is perfectly articulating the Conciliar Religion.
Does anybody know where in Vatican II it states that people outside of the Catholic Church can be saved? 
(09-20-2011, 10:49 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
Hebrews 11:6 Wrote:"But without faith it is impossible to please God."
Romans 10:8-10 Wrote:"But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach. For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation."

No-one can be saved without belief in the divinity of Christ and in the Holy Trinity, not to mention sorrow for one's sins.

And certainly no-once can be saved without knowing it, that is, in ignorance.

John 6:54-55 Wrote:Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Apocalypse 3:16 Wrote:But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
Matthew 19:24 Wrote:And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 13:10 Wrote:And unto all nations the gospel must first be preached.

There seems to be all kinds of them that not only contradict Fr. Barron but also Archbishop Lefebvre.  If that is in fact a quote by Archbishop Lefebvre that Someone1776 posted.  God is the only one that does the judging.  So aren't priests or even archbishops overstepping their authority to make these judgements?  What did the martyrs die for if all of this really doesn't matter?

I don't get it.  Can someone explain it to this dummy, me, please?  Are they some how getting these ideas from the Bible?  ???
(09-21-2011, 02:16 AM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]If that is in fact a quote by Archbishop Lefebvre that Someone1776 posted. 

It's from his famous Open Letter to Confused Catholics.

Oh well, guess he is a manifest heretic. 

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbi...ter-10.htm
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