FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Did the Pope REALLY Ask Muslims to Attack Catholics?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Was just doing some reading on Pope Alexander VI and discovered that during some war in the 1490s he tried to get the Turkish Sultan to intervene against Catholic France.  Just curious if this is worse than kissing the Koran?

From The Italian Princes, 1464-1518
By Mandell Creighton:

Quote:While Charles VIII. was at Florence a discovery was made which threw a still darker light upon the Pope's character, and which was calculated to become a serious weapon against him in the hands of the French king. In his anxiety for his own safety Alexander VI. determined to leave no stone unturned and besought even the Sultan to help him against France. The captivity of Djem and the payment of a yearly allowance to his gaoler had opened up diplomatic intercourse between Rome and Constantinople. Soon after his accession to the pontificate Alexander VI. sent one of his secretaries, Giorgio Buzardo, to demand the customary payment; Buzardo returned in January 1493 with the report that Bajazet II. had refused to pay any more and had dismissed him with empty hands.2 The French invasion gave Alexander VI. a reason for closer communication with the Sultan.

In July 1494 he again sent Buzardo to inform Bajazet II. that the French king was marching against Rome with the intention of seizing Djem, and using him as a pretext for making war against Constantinople; if he succeeded he would be joined by Spain, England Maximilian, and would give the Sultan much trouble. The Pope, therefore, begged Bajazet to pay him the money due, to use his influence to induce Venice to withstand the French, and further to make common cause with himself and Alfonso. Bajazet II. received Buzardo graciously, paid him the 40,000 ducats which the Pope demanded, and sent him back accompanied by an envoy of his own, who should confer further with the Pope. Unfortunately for Alexander VI. Buzardo fell into the hands of Giovanni della Rovere, brother of the Cardinal, at Sinigaglia, on his homeward journey. The 40,000 ducats were taken from him, and, what was still more serious, the Pope's instructions, and the Sultan's letters in reply, were discovered and were forwarded at once to Cardinal Rovere at Florence. The Pope's instructions to Buzardo were sufficiently startling; but the Sultan's answer was still more amazing. It was contained in four letters written in Turkish characters and one written in Latin. The Turkish documents praised Buzardo, commended to the Pope the Turkish envoy, and, strangely enough, asked him to confer the cardinalate on Niccolo Cibo, Archbishop of Aries, whom Bajazet II. had known in the days of Innocent VIII. The Latin letter suggested to Alexander VI. a short way of dealing with Djem: let the Pope put him to death and so defeat the plans of the French king: if the Pope would send his dead body to Constantinople, Bajazet II. would give in exchange for it 300,000 ducats, 'wherewith your highness may buy some dominions for your children.' This monstrous proposal was made, the Sultan says, after full deliberation with the Pope's envoy Buzardo. It cannot, therefore, be dismissed as the wild dream of an oriental who did not know the insult which such a proposition contained. It is not surprising that Cardinal Rovere thought the contents of these letters to be 'a stupendous matter, fraught with danger to Christendom.' He had the Turkish documents translated, and put copies of them into the hands of the chief counsellors of the French king.

It was but natural that Alexander VI. in later years should deny these dealings with the Sultan, and declare that they were inventions of his enemy, Giovanni della Rovere. He could not avoid the knowledge that his conduct had seriously shocked even the low sentiment of Europe, and he could not defend it. But it was not unnatural for a man like Alexander VI. to seek for help where he could find it, and to recognise community of interest as the most binding tie. Venice and Naples had set the example of negotiating with the Turk; and Alexander VI. was rather an Italian prince than the head of Christendom. He was free from prejudice and was not restrained by the traditions of his office. He and his family treated Djem with kindness. The Turkish prince rode out in public with the Pope, going in front of the cross which was carried in the procession.   The Duke of Gandia was seen in Turkish attire riding by the side of Djem; he even took the Turkish prince into the Lateran Church and showed him its curiosities. There was no intolerance about the court of Alexander VI., and his tolerant spirit easily extended itself into politics. If the Emperor was unwilling or unable to come to his aid, it seemed natural to apply to the Sultan. When he disavowed the fact he probably disavowed the extreme inferences which his enemies drew from it. Alexander VI. was eminently versatile and lighthearted; he probably wondered why people attached so much importance to a trifle; and after a little while Europe took his view of the matter.

At the time, however, the possession of these documents enabled the Pope's enemies to produce an impression on the mind of Charles VIII. On November 22, probably the very day on which the news of the capture of the Pope's envoy reached Florence, Charles VIII. issued a general statement of his intentions. In high-sounding language he announced his object to be war against the Turk and the restoration of Christendom: to carry out this design more surely he purposed first to assert his hereditary claim to the kingdom of Naples; he required Alexander VI. to give him safe passage through the lands of the Church; if this were refused the blame of untoward consequences would rest on those who through perfidy and iniquity attempted to hinder this pious plan. He protested beforehand that he would lay all injuries which he might suffer before the universal Church and the princes of Europe, whom he purposed to summon for the accomplishment of his crusading scheme. It was a warning to Alexander VI. that he might be impeached before a General Council as a traitor to the interests of Europe if he persisted in his opposition to the French king.
not suprising. a Pope funded and bank rolled king billy against the catholic king James. and every Irishman knows how that turned out for catholics.
a pope sanctioned the limey invasion of ireland too. with a papal bull no less.
in other words
this is not suprising at all
(09-21-2011, 11:15 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]not suprising. a Pope funded and bank rolled king billy against the catholic king James. and every Irishman knows how that turned out for catholics.
a pope sanctioned the limey invasion of ireland too. with a papal bull no less.
in other words
this is not suprising at all

I wonder what the Fish Eaters forums would have been like if they had been around back then...
On a 2 baud modem made of wood?

Very bloody frustraiting.

Mind you DK would have had the time to write normal English, every cloud and all that.
(09-21-2011, 11:38 AM)ggreg Wrote: [ -> ]On a 2 baud modem made of wood?

Very bloody frustraiting.

Mind you DK would have had the time to write normal English, every cloud and all that.

As English spelling hadn't been standardized yet he would have probably fit in better.
I guess some people here would have supported Alexander VI's decision of asking the Turk to attack France and would brand us all "disobedient" or "protestants" or "schismatics" for calling him out as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

A servile obedience to all things related to the pope is the cornerstone of their faith.
I don't know if this story is true, but it wouldn't really surprise me, given Alexander VI's character.  I think we can safely say that he was one of the worst Popes in history, and perhaps topped that infamous list.  It astounds me that some trads come to his defense when he's mentioned in relation to John Paul II, saying "at least he had the faith" (the presumption being John Paul II was a modernist).  While I don't know Alexander VI's heart or whether he repented at death, by all outside appearances the notion that he had "faith" during his papacy is laughable.  If he did believe in God, then his belief was complemented by an inordinate amount of hubris, such that he felt he could live a life of public debauchery, and still call himself "Vicar of Christ".
Popes have regularly made really, really bad decisions throughout the history of the Church; and yet the Church soldiers on. She is indefectable and the gates of hell cannot prevail against her.
Sure but the mantra gets tired and old Indeed. If anyhing that mantra is a clever wayto shut people up
see a pope French kiss a kroan?
Oh well rhe gates od hell yadda yadda
see a pope protect pedo priests who r screw some kids?
Well the gates of hell yadda yadda
see a polpe push in a prod batard mass
twell the gates if hell yadda yadda
tire but tired
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6