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Full Version: The book "For the Soul of France" and (real) antisemitism in the Church.
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After reading the aforementioned book, I have to say I was kind of appalled at the behavior promoted by French clergy in the Dreyfus affair...rather than going after the real enemy (socialism/atheism/anticlericalism), the majority of French priests and Bishops appeared to collaborate with a smokescreen that not only distracted them but targeted complete innocents for meaningless persecution.  The book has examples of parish priests wishing to have a living room rug made out of "the skin of k*kes".  Not sure the Vatican did much to discourage what was happening in France either.

Does anyone have a good explanation for the fixation of 19th century Catholics on "the Jewish question" when there were better ones to be asked?
The Dreyfus Affair really says more about the French than Catholics.  The Church in France at the time was a mess and many Frenchmen were openly hostile to the Church.  Yet, you don't see a strong correlation between religious attitudes and views toward Dreyfus. 

It also goes to show you how fast things can change.  If you arrived in Europe at the turn of the 20th century and told people that a European nation in the next 50 years was going to try to wipe out the Jews of Europe they would have have said "sure, must be France that you are talking about."  If you told them it was Germany that you were talking about they would have thought you were a kook.

Also, at the time the Middle East was shocked at the treatment of Dreyfus.   
(10-19-2011, 03:18 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]The Dreyfus Affair really says more about the French than Catholics.  The Church in France at the time was a mess and many Frenchmen were openly hostile to the Church.  Yet, you don't see a strong correlation between religious attitudes and views toward Dreyfus. 

It also goes to show you how fast things can change.  If you arrived in Europe at the turn of the 20th century and told people that a European nation in the next 50 years was going to try to wipe out the Jews of Europe they would have have said "sure, must be France that you are talking about."  If you told them it was Germany that you were talking about they would have thought you were a kook.

Also, at the time the Middle East was shocked at the treatment of Dreyfus.   

I did find it ironic how much pontificating went on in France about the Germans "being in league with the Jewish conspiracy". 

I dunno, I guess its just a little disappointing that there weren't harsher words from the Vatican...or at least a suggestion to focus on the actual political enemies of traditional France.
(10-19-2011, 03:23 PM)Norbert Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2011, 03:18 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]The Dreyfus Affair really says more about the French than Catholics.  The Church in France at the time was a mess and many Frenchmen were openly hostile to the Church.  Yet, you don't see a strong correlation between religious attitudes and views toward Dreyfus. 

It also goes to show you how fast things can change.  If you arrived in Europe at the turn of the 20th century and told people that a European nation in the next 50 years was going to try to wipe out the Jews of Europe they would have have said "sure, must be France that you are talking about."  If you told them it was Germany that you were talking about they would have thought you were a kook.

Also, at the time the Middle East was shocked at the treatment of Dreyfus.   

I did find it ironic how much pontificating went on in France about the Germans "being in league with the Jewish conspiracy". 

I dunno, I guess its just a little disappointing that there weren't harsher words from the Vatican...or at least a suggestion to focus on the actual political enemies of traditional France.

I believe at the time the Vatican had already severed off relations with France over attacks on the Church. 
(10-19-2011, 03:25 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2011, 03:23 PM)Norbert Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2011, 03:18 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]The Dreyfus Affair really says more about the French than Catholics.  The Church in France at the time was a mess and many Frenchmen were openly hostile to the Church.  Yet, you don't see a strong correlation between religious attitudes and views toward Dreyfus. 

It also goes to show you how fast things can change.  If you arrived in Europe at the turn of the 20th century and told people that a European nation in the next 50 years was going to try to wipe out the Jews of Europe they would have have said "sure, must be France that you are talking about."  If you told them it was Germany that you were talking about they would have thought you were a kook.

Also, at the time the Middle East was shocked at the treatment of Dreyfus.   

I did find it ironic how much pontificating went on in France about the Germans "being in league with the Jewish conspiracy". 

I dunno, I guess its just a little disappointing that there weren't harsher words from the Vatican...or at least a suggestion to focus on the actual political enemies of traditional France.

I believe at the time the Vatican had already severed off relations with France over attacks on the Church. 

Well yes, but if for example Texas were to announce that being Mexican was a capital offense, it wouldn't convince anyone that the Feds didn't support it if they said "we sever relations with Texas".
The correlation with the antisemitism in the Church is real, only an ignorant of history would say otherwise.

It was only the post-war II and post-Vatican II Church that radically changed the attitude towards Jews.
But most jews aren't semites.
(10-19-2011, 03:50 PM)Heinrich Wrote: [ -> ]But most jews aren't semites.

Yeah but they seem to have a monopoly on the word.

(10-19-2011, 03:52 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2011, 03:50 PM)Heinrich Wrote: [ -> ]But most jews aren't semites.

Yeah but they seem to have a monopoly on the word.

And everything else.
(10-19-2011, 03:34 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]The correlation with the antisemitism in the Church is real, only an ignorant of history would say otherwise.

It was only the post-war II and post-Vatican II Church that radically changed the attitude towards Jews.


It's a shame that nothing was ever done among Jewish leaders about the anti-Christian attitude of many jews at the same time.  If that had happened as well, perhaps the radically changed attitude towards jews would be Catholic.
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