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Another question then.  WRC's answer is given to the CINO.  What if the CINO then takes contraceptive action upon themselves, especially one that can't be reversed, and that was actively discouraged by the other spouse?  Does the spouse who didn't want that to happen need to abstain then?  Or how does that work?  Is the "good" spouse damned by the actions of the other spouse if they don't abstain?  Again, not trying to get around things.  Just trying to understand.
(11-15-2011, 03:24 PM)Gris Wrote: [ -> ]k3vinhood - That I understand, yes.  

How is a way to explain such things when the other has virtually no concept of sin at all, nevermind mortal and venial?  How is this explained to a person who believes that because they are Catholic, really in name only, they embody all that Catholicism entails and therefore that's it?  How can the marriage stay together when the thoughts and faiths of two people are diametrically opposed?  How can the spouses properly love each other? How can the spouse who is attempting to love and please Jesus so utterly fail at conveying a basic idea to their loved one?  Does the marriage end if this is not resolved and if so, what happens if they have children previously?


WRC -  Yes, foisting sin upon others is also sin for those requesting the other to do it.  I'm pointing out faulty thinking on the part of the Catholic without a fully formed conscience.

Honestly Gris- I'd say the spouses need to talk to a priest, and the actual catholic of the two needs to really push (mainly by setting an example) to help the non-practicing Catholic to be Catholic.

But if the non practitioner continues in obstinace, there is a point where the other person has to save their own soul.  If the non-practitioner shows a repeated non-interest in doing that, the best thing to do is to run because they have made it clear who they serve.
(11-15-2011, 07:10 PM)Gris Wrote: [ -> ]Another question then.  WRC's answer is given to the CINO.  What if the CINO then takes contraceptive action upon themselves, especially one that can't be reversed, and that was actively discouraged by the other spouse?  Does the spouse who didn't want that to happen need to abstain then?  Or how does that work?  Is the "good" spouse damned by the actions of the other spouse if they don't abstain?  Again, not trying to get around things.  Just trying to understand.

The way this person is acting is actually probable grounds for annulment. It is highly doubtful that the spouse has to acquiesce to their desires because of their frustration of the creative powers. The good spouse needs to consult a priest, make sure their objection is loud and clear, and try to have the situation changed. That spouse, though, would not sin if they engaged in the marital act, as long as they did not frustrate their procreative powers, and also did not share in the evil intention.
Perhaps a real life situation:

Im a trad leaning Catholic.  My wife is a cafeteria Catholic.  She doesn't want more kids at the moment because she is busy with school and work.  She uses contraceptive (an insert) despite my protest.

Can I have sex with her or am I morally bound to abstain?
(11-15-2011, 08:22 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps a real life situation:

Im a trad leaning Catholic.  My wife is a cafeteria Catholic.  She doesn't want more kids at the moment because she is busy with school and work.  She uses contraceptive (an insert) despite my protest.

Can I have sex with her or am I morally bound to abstain?

Absolutely you should abstain.
(11-15-2011, 08:22 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps a real life situation:

Im a trad leaning Catholic.  My wife is a cafeteria Catholic.  She doesn't want more kids at the moment because she is busy with school and work.  She uses contraceptive (an insert) despite my protest.

Can I have sex with her or am I morally bound to abstain?

I would abstain if it was my wife. In my opinion there needs to be a huge sit down conversation. Perhaps you've (or whoever) already had it. Perhaps you were more cafeteria before, and she hasn't come along with you. Pray for her. Make the sacrifice of abstaining. I would tell you to pull rank and tell her that none of that evil stuff is allowed in the house because it corrupts the children, but that is a hard sell, and can really rock the boat of your children's life. You may have to bear it while the kids are growing up. But pray and sacrifice, and basically I would live like a sibling.
(11-15-2011, 08:41 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-15-2011, 08:22 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps a real life situation:

Im a trad leaning Catholic.  My wife is a cafeteria Catholic.  She doesn't want more kids at the moment because she is busy with school and work.  She uses contraceptive (an insert) despite my protest.

Can I have sex with her or am I morally bound to abstain?

I would abstain if it was my wife. In my opinion there needs to be a huge sit down conversation. Perhaps you've (or whoever) already had it. Perhaps you were more cafeteria before, and she hasn't come along with you. Pray for her. Make the sacrifice of abstaining. I would tell you to pull rank and tell her that none of that evil stuff is allowed in the house because it corrupts the children, but that is a hard sell, and can really rock the boat of your children's life. You may have to bear it while the kids are growing up. But pray and sacrifice, and basically I would live like a sibling.

Well, and most importantly, talk to an orthodox priest.  But not to get the answer, contraception is a grievous sin no matter how it's cut- but talk to a priest about how to help your wife get back on track.  It sounds like her faith is slipping and that's a very sad thing.  Prayers for you.
(11-15-2011, 08:43 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]Well, and most importantly, talk to an orthodox priest.

This.

We can give abstract answers to hypothetical questions, but internet fora are bad places for spiritual advice.

[Image: 9b8a6650d18755254af5fdefec5472c11bf749d9.gif]
We have had a sit down talk about it. More than once. I think the pull rank idea will cause more problems than solve.
(11-15-2011, 08:48 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-15-2011, 08:43 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]Well, and most importantly, talk to an orthodox priest.

This.

We can give abstract answers to hypothetical questions, but internet fora are bad places for spiritual advice.

[Image: 9b8a6650d18755254af5fdefec5472c11bf749d9.gif]

Gotcha. Thank you.
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