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(11-16-2011, 02:55 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 02:51 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 02:49 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]Baltimore is out for containing heresy.

What heresy?

Don't worry about him. Probably said baptism of desire. Finally Pope Servire has spoken on the matter.

According to the Novus Ordites at CAF, My Catholic Faith contains BoD and BoB. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=596752

I'll find out how to perform an extraordinary and/or conditional baptism elsewhere.

Also, it wasn't me who spoke on the matter. Many Popes have, infallibly.
(11-16-2011, 03:05 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]Also, it wasn't me who spoke on the matter. Many Popes have, infallibly.

Zzzzz ... thick as a brick.
(11-16-2011, 03:07 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 03:05 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]Also, it wasn't me who spoke on the matter. Many Popes have, infallibly.

Zzzzz ... thick as a brick.

You're not interested in the truth, therefore you are the one as thick as a brick.

Why are you commenting on this thread if you believe that dying kids can be saved by their "desire"? It renders this thread - and the basis of the Catholic Faith - pointless.
You don't even believe in Baptism of Blood? Shocked What about the martyrs?
(11-16-2011, 03:11 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]You're not interested in the truth, therefore you are the one as thick as a brick.

Why are you commenting on this thread if you believe that dying kids can be saved by their "desire"? It renders this thread - and the basis of the Catholic Faith - pointless.

You don't understand the nuance. A dying child does need to be baptized the ordinary way. A permitted theological opinion is that they can be baptized through desire if it is impossible to baptize them with water, which would be extremely rare, right? Most baptism of desire refers to catechumens instead of infants. Read a theological manual and see that baptism of desire is a theological opinion which is permitted and debated. Maybe those same manuals are not orthodox enough for you then.

(11-16-2011, 03:16 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]You don't even believe in Baptism of Blood? Shocked What about the martyrs?

And the feast of the Holy Innocents!
(11-16-2011, 03:16 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]You don't even believe in Baptism of Blood? Shocked What about the martyrs?

That is correct.

Every martyr was baptized with water before being martyred. If you disagree, please give me the name of a specific martyr who, in your opinion, was martyred before water baptism.


(11-16-2011, 03:20 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Read a theological manual and see that baptism of desire is a theological opinion which is permitted and debated.

Oh? But when I disagree, I'm "thick as a brick".

(11-16-2011, 03:20 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]And the feast of the Holy Innocents!

They were killed before Christ was risen and were under the Old Law. They went to Limbo of the Fathers and are almost undoubtedly in Heaven right now.
(11-16-2011, 03:25 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]Every martyr was baptized with water before being martyred. If you disagree, please give me the name of a specific martyr who, in your opinion, was martyred before water baptism.

The Forty Holy Martyrs who were left to die on a frozen lake. One faltered and climbed into the warm tubs of water that the Romans had set out , where he died immediately. A soldier watching had a vision of 39 crowns flying up to heaven, so the pagan Roman stripped and threw himself onto the lake to take his place. I will look it up in Butler's when I get home.
(11-16-2011, 03:25 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 03:16 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]You don't even believe in Baptism of Blood? Shocked What about the martyrs?

That is correct.

Every martyr was baptized with water before being martyred. If you disagree, please give me the name of a specific martyr who, in your opinion, was martyred before water baptism.

The Church Fathers have written about such Saints.

Ex:
Quote:Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins.
-St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood.
-St. John Chrysostom

If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]
-St. Cyril of Jerusalem


(11-16-2011, 03:25 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 03:16 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]You don't even believe in Baptism of Blood? Shocked What about the martyrs?

That is correct.

Every martyr was baptized with water before being martyred. If you disagree, please give me the name of a specific martyr who, in your opinion, was martyred before water baptism.


(11-16-2011, 03:20 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Read a theological manual and see that baptism of desire is a theological opinion which is permitted and debated.

Oh? But when I disagree, I'm "thick as a brick".

(11-16-2011, 03:20 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]And the feast of the Holy Innocents!

They were killed before Christ was risen and were under the Old Law. They went to Limbo of the Fathers and are almost undoubtedly in Heaven right now.
I probably shouldn't even get in this mess, but St Emerentiana was martyred before baptism, while still a catechumen. Foster-sister of St Agnes.
(11-16-2011, 03:30 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 03:25 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]Every martyr was baptized with water before being martyred. If you disagree, please give me the name of a specific martyr who, in your opinion, was martyred before water baptism.

The Forty Holy Martyrs who were left to die on a frozen lake. One faltered and climbed into the warm tubs of water that the Romans had set out , where he died immediately. A soldier watching had a vision of 39 crowns flying up to heaven, so the pagan Roman stripped and threw himself onto the lake to take his place. I will look it up in Butler's when I get home.

I too will look it up.


K3vinhood: The Church Fathers weren't infallible.
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