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(11-16-2011, 03:30 PM)K3vinhood Wrote: [ -> ]The Church Fathers have written about such Saints.

Ex:
Quote:Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins.
-St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood.
-St. John Chrysostom

If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]
-St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Only St. Cyril's quote can be construed as meaning baptism of blood substituting actual baptism.

The first two just bring us to mind the undoubted excellency of martyrdom for Christ.
St Alphonsus Liguori Wrote:Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood.
We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”
Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality [“non ita stricte”] as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view [i.e. the view that infants are not able to benefit from baptism of blood — translator] is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.
It is clear that martyrdom is not a sacrament, because it is not an action instituted by Christ, and for the same reason neither was the Baptism of John a sacrament: it did not sanctify a man, but only prepared him for the coming of Christ.

see here: http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_stalph.html
I've already read that. St. Alphonsus was in error and was not infallible.




(11-16-2011, 02:38 PM)dan hunter Wrote: [ -> ]Ludwig Ott in "Fundementals of Catholic Dogma" [non-heretical] says:

"In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire
or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)"

Did you miss the following?

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 354 Wrote:1. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation- Baptism by water (Baptismus Fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (de fide.)

Emphasis mine.
(11-16-2011, 02:45 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 02:38 PM)dan hunter Wrote: [ -> ]Ludwig Ott in "Fundementals of Catholic Dogma" [non-heretical] says:

"In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire
or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)"

This has nothing to do with the thread.
Sure it does.
It is pertaining to baptism and emergencys as declared dogmatically by the Church.
Plus I wanted to get at the heart of the matter in the truth of Baptism BD and Blood, which is a part of Servire's problem
(11-16-2011, 04:09 PM)dan hunter Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 02:45 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]This has nothing to do with the thread.
Sure it does.
It is pertaining to baptism and emergencys as declared dogmatically by the Church.
Plus I wanted to get at the heart of the matter in the truth of Baptism BD and Blood, which is a part of Servire's problem

So basically you wanted to stir up trouble. Also the original query had nothing to do with emergencies, although that at least was a reasonable turn of conversation.
(11-16-2011, 04:03 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]I've already read that. St. Alphonsus was in error and was not infallible.

Oh, and you are?  :LOL:
(11-16-2011, 04:24 PM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 04:03 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]I've already read that. St. Alphonsus was in error and was not infallible.

Oh, and you are?  :LOL:

In error or infallible?
(11-16-2011, 04:15 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 04:09 PM)dan hunter Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-16-2011, 02:45 PM)piabee Wrote: [ -> ]This has nothing to do with the thread.
Sure it does.
It is pertaining to baptism and emergencys as declared dogmatically by the Church.
Plus I wanted to get at the heart of the matter in the truth of Baptism BD and Blood, which is a part of Servire's problem

So basically you wanted to stir up trouble. Also the original query had nothing to do with emergencies, although that at least was a reasonable turn of conversation.
Unlike you I have no desire to stir up trouble.
I was only trying to help a fellow serviceman get to heaven.
(11-16-2011, 04:25 PM)dan hunter Wrote: [ -> ]Unlike you I have no desire to stir up trouble.

:LOL:
(11-16-2011, 04:25 PM)dan hunter Wrote: [ -> ]I was only trying to help a fellow serviceman get to heaven.

I thought you're Canadian.
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