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(11-17-2011, 03:27 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]Spain? Presence of TLMs? Mass attendance?  :LOL:

Italy, though, yes, you're right.

Spain is a spiritual wasteland now. Quite sad.

I think that there's 2 TLMs in Spain, I've heard. One of them is SSPX who, by the way, doesn't even have a priest in the country. I would call NO Mass attendance in Spain a joke but that would be an insult to jokes.

I can't defend the Church in Spain -- but the essence of my point is that it's even worse in Ireland.  A return to tradition at this point among more conservative Catholics would very likely influence Spain in the right direction at least.  Ireland I feel has been lost, would not be affected, and really needs to be re-evangelized from the start.

Anyway it's probably not a clear thing and I'm honestly too lazy to find numbers, but that's my impression of the state of things.
As an Irishman who livedand grew up  in Dublin until a few years ago and now lives in Madrid and attends one of the two Tridentine Masses in Spain, I think I have a unique perspective on the situation.

Both lands are spiritual wastelands.

However, I think Spain is ten years ahead of Ireland.

Spain - problems
1 Has had a vicious anti-clerical part of the population for the last two centuries
2 abortion and divorce since the 1970s
3. ruled by socialists for decades
4 wild hedonism amongst the youth, prostitution normalised in big cities
5 Churches completely empty, my local Church has no men at it and no women under 60. They play horrible screeching new age music from a cassette during communion too, its a beautiful church too, such a shame

reasons for hope
1 Carlism support for the true Spanish monarchy is very popular amongst trad Catholics, very hopeful
2 the Tridentine Mass is always packed to the gills with only standing room, full of young men too. Very much a man's affair going to Mass and praying to the Saints and angels

I think the only hope for Spain is monarchy

Ireland con
1 total collapse of faith in 2000s
2 Church run by diabolically diorientated bishops

Pro
1 the pro-life movement is very strong here, championed by devout Catholics who will go down fighting
2 by the grace of God, the faith has survived in some families (mine unfortunately it has not), although I'm trying to change that
3 cultural catholicism still exists

Give Ireland ten more years without a radical turn-around and Ireland could be like Spain

Where I live in Madrid, homosexuals run the show. I would never see such behaviour in Dublin, but give it a few years and we will be worshipping the animals
(11-17-2011, 03:37 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-17-2011, 03:34 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-17-2011, 03:30 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]The people in general distrust the Church.

One should distrust the counter-church.

They distrust the trads too, even more so because of the history of Republicanism.  :crazy:

Why? Were the Republicans Latin Massers? That's news to me
(11-17-2011, 05:23 PM)Retrolives Wrote: [ -> ]Ireland con
1 total collapse of faith in 2000s
2 Church run by diabolically diorientated bishops

Pro
1 the pro-life movement is very strong here, championed by devout Catholics who will go down fighting
2 by the grace of God, the faith has survived in some families (mine unfortunately it has not), although I'm trying to change that
3 cultural catholicism still exists

Give Ireland ten more years without a radical turn-around and Ireland could be like Spain

Where I live in Madrid, homosexuals run the show. I would never see such behaviour in Dublin, but give it a few years and we will be worshipping the animals

I think of it this way. If you were looking at a plane coming down, the trajectory of Ireland is much more startling. Like nosedive. Granted the situation is universally junkie everywhere. I went there and was amazed that I found metropolitan Los Angeles more hospital to traditionalists than metro Dublin, eventhough Dublin has a lot left of the appearances of faith (old buildings, etc.). On the other side I found Galway and the Gaeltacht over there to be equally disappointing. The only bright sides were Latin adoration in the Galway cathedral, and a good remnant Catholicism on Inish More.

As for homosexuals, there have been a lot of inroads in Dublin (Dublin Pride, Dublin Gay Theatre Festival), and the Irish language media seem to warming up to them at the moment (Scott De Buitléir, friendly articles in *nós magazine, etc.).

Thanks for your on the ground viewpoint.

(11-17-2011, 05:28 PM)Retrolives Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-17-2011, 03:37 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]They distrust the trads too, even more so because of the history of Republicanism.  :crazy:

Why? Were the Republicans Latin Massers? That's news to me

Some trads have been associated with the Republican movement. There is the case of The Hibernian magazine, and its editor Gerry McGeough, a former IRA guy. I am not saying it is justified, but some associate the two.
The Spanish monarchy has nothing to offer for Catholics.

They're all Novus Ordo (at least publicly), some of the younger Royals are debauched (though this has been the case throughout history), and the King himself legalized abortion. He did it in the same manner Queen Elizabeth did.

Modern Royals only care about keeping what little power they have, so they compromise. Some leaders!

And thanks Retrolives for your assessment.

God bless the glens of Ireland.  :pray:
I agree Scriptorium, there has been a nosedive.

When I grew up in the late 1980s being Irish and Catholic were synonymous. Prayer in school, taught by priests in primary school who unambigously condemned abortion divorce and homosexuality in religion class, the works.... there was a distinct Irish Catholic identity that everyone was proud of.

Now I think of myself as Catholic, but I don't know what being Irish means any more. My nation is the universal Church as always, but Irish people like Spanish have completely forgotten everything about their history and traditions. We are born to consume and die, that's it. And seeing men and women who have possibly dozens of anscestors who became priests and nuns and countless others who died for the faith denouncing the Church as the greatest evil is clearly very upsetting.

This link between Irish identity and Catholicism has now been severed for many if not most, the majority of Irish people do not recognise the Church and cannot relate to it in any way.

With the loss of the liturgy, the Irish Church still had its rich history and reputation of standing up to injustice. With the abuse crisis they lost the moral high-ground and now they have nothing to offer. As such Irish people have had a catastrophic loss of identity, so their demise might be faster than elsewhere because they have gone from a deeply spiritual people to an atheistic world view so quickly. They will not schism. They will not look for a new religion. If there's one thing an Irish atheist knows is that protestantism went nowhere, its either Catholicism or nothing, and thus huge swathes of Ireland have chosen nothing.

I might add that I myself lost the faith, but recovered it when I was brought to an SSPX Mass in Dublin. If anything, this whole episode simply reinforces the point that the Mass celebrated correctly is the only thing that can sustain the Church and no matter how exemplary a people might be in the faith down through the centuries, the second the Mass is stolen from them they will degenerate into the abyss. The Irish had a particular loyalty to the Mass, and I think was the only reason Ireland survived the endless persecution and cultural annihilation that was wrought upon it for centuries:
http://www.neumannpress.com/irlotoma.html
The new age Mass has done to Ireland what dozens of English kings could never do

Your links were fascinating Scriptorium, I must plead my ignorance with regards the Hibernian. Very interesting!

(11-17-2011, 07:23 PM)Servire Deo Wrote: [ -> ]The Spanish monarchy has nothing to offer for Catholics.

They're all Novus Ordo (at least publicly), some of the younger Royals are debauched (though this has been the case throughout history), and the King himself legalized abortion. He did it in the same manner Queen Elizabeth did.

Modern Royals only care about keeping what little power they have, so they compromise. Some leaders!

And thanks Retrolives for your assessment.

I think you are confusing the current imposter royal family put in place by liberals with the true lineage, the Carlist line which is not in power:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlism

An important distinction.
Put not your trust in princes...
(11-18-2011, 12:37 PM)Retrolives Wrote: [ -> ]And seeing men and women who have possibly dozens of anscestors who became priests and nuns and countless others who died for the faith denouncing the Church as the greatest evil is clearly very upsetting.

In my wife's family they have their first generation without a vocation. Her family line has at least one priest or nun, but now ... they don't even go to Church. All is not lost, of course. I know because I left the Faith for a while and came back, and now other members of my family are too. Vocations are interesting, though, because they indicate a foundation in the Faith because people are called to the next level. Now the Irish have a shortage of vocations. There is hope, or she falls into the sea.
The whole thing can be watched here:

http://gloria.tv/?media=4874
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