FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: This is what obedience looks like
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
I wish I could move there!  Wow! 
(12-05-2011, 12:54 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-04-2011, 10:47 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]The Church just put a new missal for the NO into effect. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon if ever in my lifetime.

Indeed.

Traditionalists seem to have forgotten what they're supposed to be fighting for. This isn't about a bit of Latin here, a few notes of chant there, or a puff of incense somewhere between. This is about the very definition of the reality of the Mass as taught by the Council of Trent: what makes the Mass a Catholic Mass. It is what separates the Catholic Mass (in all of its various rites across the world) from all the heretical liturgies of the enemies of the Church. This is a doctrine that the Novus Ordo liturgy, regardless of how many re-translations and reforms it undergoes, refuses to unambiguously profess. It is this core issue that is hardly ever discussed in tradition circles anymore. All that matters is preferential aesthetics these days, and traditional Catholics are caving in on all fronts. To them, the Mass is "Catholic" if it is aesthetically pleasing; and if you try to remind them of this problem, they label you a pessimist and a nay-sayer, one who refuses to give credit where credit is due, or even a Catholic with a schismatic mentality. But in reality it is they who do not understand what traditional Catholic is really about. They were attracted to traditional Catholicism because of the aesthetic appeal of the traditions of the Church; to them, that is what the fight for tradition is all about. But that is not what Abp. Lefebvre fought for.

THIS!  Amen, INPEFESS.

This is what I am stating often on this forum when I state that the New Mass isn't truly a "Catholic Mass," in that it doesn't teach the true religion.  How can a rite of Mass be considered as truly Catholic if it doesn't teach the true Faith?  How can there merely be an "inferior" rite in this regard?

The statistics based upon the law Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi (the way we pray is the way we believe) simply PROVES that the New Mass doesn't teach the true religion.  Do you believe that, say in the mid 1800's, that 50% of professed Catholics didn't believe in the Real Presence?  Well that is the case today.  Why is that?  Because it is the Mass that teaches us our religion, it is the highest form of prayer - and the Novus Ordo Mass is the way that the vast majority of professed Catholics pray these days.  Remember, the way we pray is the way we believe.  When the Novus Ordo Mass is the way we pray, the way we believe shows through very clearly.  As Archbishop Lefebvre stated, the New Mass makes Protestants.  Why is that?  Because the New Mass teaches Protestantism.  Why is that?  Because the New Mass is a carbon-copy of an already condemned PROTESTANT heretical rite - it was fabricated by six Protestants and an alleged Freemason!

Like INPEFESS stated, it is not easy to accept these things - it is hard to grasp the answers to these questions, but they are right there for all of us to see, so whoever can accept them ought to accept them.  It also wasn't easy for the followers of Christ to believe that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood for salvation, and many left His side that day.
(12-04-2011, 10:47 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]If I remember correctly there is a monastery in Italy that offers both the TLM and the Novus Ordo and is being used to study the possibility of a hybrid of sorts. The monastery is called "New Norcia" or something. Don't quote me on it but I thought I heard that the reason they had both ( TLM and NO) was to sort of be a testing ground for a possible hybrid. I believe wholeheartedly that whether that monastery is helping create a  hybrid or not a return to the traditional Latin Mass is out of the question for Rome for a LONG time and that a hybrid is probably the next step. Even the Novus Ordo is here to stay whether we like it or not. The Church just put a new missal for the NO into effect. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon if ever in my lifetime. I think Mass in the vernacular is here to stay too and that whatever hybrid will come up in the next few decades will probably not be in Latin. Like it or not Vatican II changed utterly the face of Catholicism and in most of our lifetimes the only way to escape it is to just attend the SSPX or something and hope that our grandchildrens childrens children worship in a time where Vatican II and all the silliness we are dealing with is just a footnote in the history books.


"Like it or not Vatican II changed utterly the face of Catholicism"
That's not precisely VATII that changed the face of the Liturgy since VAT reaffirmed that the Latin remained the language of the Church, that is the enforcement of the flawed liturgic reform concocted with obscure and undisclosable second thoughts by a freemason bishop (Bugnini) and a Pope who gave him a free hand to do as he wanted. In addition, the ancient liturgy was said to be forbidden forever frm the implementation of the NO.
First lie: Who said that? Was this an invention of the modernist bishops or was it a strict order of the Vatican? Anyways our Holy Father said that the Latin Mass NEVER had been abrogated.
But 40 years of  NO and TLM banning DELIBERATELY made irreversible damages:
- The latin language was no longer taughts except in trad seminaries.
- The practice of the TLM was abandoned and it is a hard way for young priests who don't understand latin to learn it.
That is why I much doubt that the TLM will become again the norm in the future or even peacefully coexist with the NO unless the appropriate steps are reintroduced in the seminaries.
"This isnt about a bit of Latin..."

What its really about is God's wish that devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary be established throughout the world.  Everything else will fall into line when this has happened.
(12-05-2011, 07:54 AM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ] Remember, the way we pray is the way we believe.  When the Novus Ordo Mass is the way we pray, the way we believe shows through very clearly.

I don't disagree with you but I would ask you this... Don't you know of any examples where this isn't true?  My parish currently only offers the NO Mass but our priest is just like the one in this thread.  My friends, my husband and I are all deeply observant Catholics.  We're not contracepting, cafeteria Catholics who see nothing wrong with married or women priests, for example.

Our Catholic faith is the guiding force in every. single. thing that we do.  It causes divisions in our extended families and a sense of being out of step with common society.  That's fine but I think it speaks to our willingness to suffer and die for the faith.  What you seem to be saying is that your level of belief is inherently deeper by virtue of attending the Tridentine rite.  But when I look around at my parishioners I see with my own eyes that it's far more complicated than that.

After all, the generation that jettisoned the Tridentine rite and passed on such poor catechesis to their children were formed on the Extraordinary Form.  They were praying beautifully but it didn't take root in their souls or intellect.  They had the best Mass and still screwed things up.

I think the EF makes the meaning of the Mass much clearer and is inherently more inspiring.  But it's definitely not the only factor for why Catholics do or don't have a fervent faith.
"Don't you know of any examples where this isn't true?"

If you are asking if a person can attend a NO and become a Saint, the answer is an emphatic YES.  The problem with the NO is it lowers the bar quite a bit and so the majority that needs as much insight and motivation as possible, just are not getting it.  Remember too, that Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima promised, "Whoever embraces devotion to My Immaculate Heart I promise salvation.  Those souls will be cherished by God as flowers placed by Me to adorn His throne."  The key to all of this is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, even more than which Mass one attends.
I had a short email back-and-forth conversation with the Parish Priest, Father Markey. He is a really great guy! I'd love to hear his sermons. I think he and Father Rodriguez should become pen-pals :D
(12-05-2011, 02:55 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]How is it possible that a liturgy can be, in effect, "less Catholic" than another if it approved by the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Ghost to safeguard us agains the errors that threaten the Church?

I don't know.  I suppose because the Holy Ghost allows things to happen in the Church here on earth as trials for its members.  He allowed the Orthodox schism to happen, and the Protestant heresy, and now this (whatever Church historians may call it in centuries to come...).

In any case, it's "less" Catholic only because it isn't as explicit as the TLM.  A priest who offers the NO with the right understanding and intention offers the re-presentation of Our Lord's Holy Sacrifice to the Father; I think it's entirely Catholic in its essence.

INPEFESS Wrote:I do not believe that the post-Vatican II magisterium speaks on behalf of the Catholic Church; nor do I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is identical with the Catholic Mass according to the teachings of the Council of Trent; nor do I believe that the form of religion promoted by the Novus Ordo program of reform is the same religion as the Catholic religion. Coming to terms with these realities is harsh, but, in the end, reality must be faced for what it is. To accept a compromise between the way these two structures conduct themselves is to undo everything the Church was founded to do.

Thanks for explaining yourself.  I guess I don't see a compromise because I agree with the Pope that VII documents can be interpreted in a way consistent with tradition and that the NO is not inherently sinful, though in practice the NO is typically offered in ways that I think are unacceptable.  Indeed, sometimes it's offered in ways that are downright sinful (and if there are fewer graces being received by those who assist at such Masses, it helps explain why so many have fallen away in recent decades.)

Nic Wrote:Because it is the Mass that teaches us our religion, it is the highest form of prayer - and the Novus Ordo Mass is the way that the vast majority of professed Catholics pray these days.  Remember, the way we pray is the way we believe.  When the Novus Ordo Mass is the way we pray, the way we believe shows through very clearly.  As Archbishop Lefebvre stated, the New Mass makes Protestants.  Why is that?  Because the New Mass teaches Protestantism.

Nic, it is not just the Mass that teaches us our religion.  I think somebody that tries to learn Catholicism just from the TLM might end up as confused as the poor Protestants who try to learn the faith just from the Bible.  The NO can be made to teach Protestantism, due to its omissions and vagaries, but it does not have to be so.  As GraceSeeker (and the OP) point out, there are good priests offering the NO, who know what Catholicism is all about, and there are good faithful Catholics who have managed to hang on to the proper understanding of the faith in the face of the chaos all around them.  It isn't easy for any of these people, but it's possible.  I think the Holy Ghost has allowed this trial to determine who will "stay faithful to the end".

Again from GraceSeeker:

GraceSeeker Wrote:After all, the generation that jettisoned the Tridentine rite and passed on such poor catechesis to their children were formed on the Extraordinary Form.  They were praying beautifully but it didn't take root in their souls or intellect.  They had the best Mass and still screwed things up.

Indeed, it's been proven that the best Mass is not a cure-all.  There were many people in the Church who had been espousing modernist heresies long before the NO was ever dreamt up.  Otherwise, why would Pius IX have drafted the Syllabus of Errors and Saint Pius X have drafted the Oath Against Modernism?  There were lots of problems in the Church leading up to VII, which was just an "excuse" of sorts for people to start doing really destructive things.

You have to look at is AS A WHOLE, which is what I stated earlier.

Did 50% of professed Catholics not believe in the Real Presence before 1969?  Nope (probably less than 1%).  How about in the year 2000?  Yep (actually probably over 50%, not to mention other basic dogmas of the Faith that are no longer believed).  There is a clear conclusion - that it all has to do with the N.O. Mass. 

If I was one to compromise, I could go to the New Mass next Sunday and from now on and not loose my Faith.  There are many great Catholics, better than I could ever be, who attend the New Mass regularly - but we have to judge the situation as a whole, and as a whole the conclusion is that it is the Mass that matters, and the New Mass is indeed leading to these dreadful statistics that we see.  There are no two ways around it.  The statistics are right there in front of our faces to see.
(12-06-2011, 05:28 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]You have to look at is AS A WHOLE, which is what I stated earlier.

Did 50% of professed Catholics not believe in the Real Presence before 1969?  Nope (probably less than 1%).  How about in the year 2000?  Yep (actually probably over 50%, not to mention other basic dogmas of the Faith that are no longer believed).  There is a clear conclusion - that it all has to do with the N.O. Mass. 

If I was one to compromise, I could go to the New Mass next Sunday and from now on and not loose my Faith.  There are many great Catholics, better than I could ever be, who attend the New Mass regularly - but we have to judge the situation as a whole, and as a whole the conclusion is that it is the Mass that matters, and the New Mass is indeed leading to these dreadful statistics that we see.  There are no two ways around it.  The statistics are right there in front of our faces to see.

Those are American statistics. Catholics in countries like Vietnam, South Korea, Nigeria, etc. are more orthodox than their Western counterparts.

I agree with you that the New Mass undermines the Catholic Faith, but I think the collapse in religious belief has many more causes than the introduction of the New Mass.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5