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Full Version: Why do some believe the Church is not in a crisis?
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(12-15-2011, 04:14 PM)su Wrote: [ -> ]I do not have the attitude you describe, but I do not have the opposite.

I think I see the bigger picture (aware of past crises in the Church), and more importantly am aware of my own state.

For me, there is no crisis.

Are you saying that those who recognize and critique the crisis don't see the big picture and are unaware of their own states? That they're less enlightened than you are?
I am going to guess that she is saying that, Jackson. But maybe not with the level of pride in which you just set that snare.

Well said, SU. You are correct to view past crises in the Church, and you probably recognize, as do I, that our life is but a breath.

Dare we say the Church Triumphant is in crisis? Dare we say those Holy Souls in Purgatory that make up the Church Suffering are in crisis? They may be cooking for awhile, but they know their eternal reward will come.

So what's the problem you pessimests? Everything is not coming up like a bed of roses for you? You sholuld have Faith even if you were the only one left.

Offer up your discomfort as a sacrifice. Pray for those people instead of complaining about them. Don't try to analyze them and set them up in demographics according to your view.

You, in the plural sense, and I are nothing in the sight of God. Yet He loves all of us and gives us time. You can do nothing good, or anything without his help.

That's why this is a pilgramage on earth. I think that is another group we can concoct. Those who think a pilgramage is to Fatima, Lourdes, Rome, etc., while forgetting about the pilgramage called life. Oh sure, I would like to visit these places someday, but what need do I have? God is present in my parish, He is on the Altar and in His Tabernacle.

Either way, I am content in my Faith and what I am doing. I am married, I have children who I am raising in the Faith, I am well fed at my parish, so life is good.

What crisis?

It's all in you, my brothers and sisters. If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.


"At least five times, therefore, with the Arian and the Albigensian, with the Humanist sceptic, after Voltaire and after Darwin, the Faith has to all appearance gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died. How complete was the collapse and how strange the reversal, we cars only see in detail in the case nearest to our own time."

G. K. Chesterton, "The Five Deaths of the Faith" from The Everlasting Man
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ch...art2c6.htm

The Church will come out of this time of troubles, as it has before, and maybe will again God knows how many times before the Judgement.
Nicely said, Parmundar. It really is a gift from God to have struggle through it, don't you think?

Why do people think the world will end during their time on earth? It's narcissism. I think the same defect is in play here among the pessimists. However well meaning our pessimists here may be!

What do they want? A religion that resembles the Stepford Wives where everybody goes to Mass in their Sunday best and smiling like a robot? Are they looking for a well run operating system, like a machine, that they will into existence by participating in forums like this?

Someone else mentioned martyrs. It may come to that, but in the meantime, pick up your Cross and follow Jesus through the tough trials of "papercut martyrdom", and quit bitching about already.
(12-15-2011, 05:41 PM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]"At least five times, therefore, with the Arian and the Albigensian, with the Humanist sceptic, after Voltaire and after Darwin, the Faith has to all appearance gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died. How complete was the collapse and how strange the reversal, we cars only see in detail in the case nearest to our own time."

G. K. Chesterton, "The Five Deaths of the Faith" from The Everlasting Man
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ch...art2c6.htm

The Church will come out of this time of troubles, as it has before, and maybe will again God knows how many times before the Judgement.

Great quote.  It sums up my view very well.
The Church cannot be said to be in a non-crisis mode, just because we are well-fed at our parish and have a spiritually sound structure in place for ourselves and our loved ones.

Erm....what about the hundreds of millions of Catholics who are starving to death as a direct result of a rot in the Church that begun before Vatican II?

Persecution and heresy can always attack the Church to a large degree, but you do not see such a level of indifference, ignorance and ill-will amongst the clergy and faithful too often in the history of the Church.....
Adam, you preach bovine contentment.

And he blinked.
(12-15-2011, 02:23 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]However, I notice many people seem to take the opinion that the Church is flourishing like never before. Many people are absolutely dead certain and joyful about the state of the Church right now. I find this fascinating - because I seem to hold the opposite view and I believe that I am correct.

What am I missing? What are they seeing? In what ways can this be said to be true [Church is flourishing]?

I guess I am at a loss. Am I just pessimistic?

Here's what I've gathered.

Let's put aside the vast majority who just don't care. Most don't give a damn about religion one way or the other, so if you confront them with some crisis narrative, you may as well be talking about the price of lima beans in Uzbekistan. Yawn.

Let's just talk about the very small percentage that do feel themselves somehow involved in religion. From what I have seen, people just plain like the new religion better.

1. Ecumenism and Universal Salvation: people like that. It's easier. You don't have to feel like a bad guy and poo-poo other religions. Every human endeavor is a path to heaven. There is no hell. Everybody's okay.
2. Chummy gay priests: people like that, too. The old "arrogant" priests were always telling you what to do and acting like they're better than you. These new guys are fun. And they're gay, too, so it's like hanging out with your girlfriends. And you can go shopping with them. And they'll seduce your boys. What??
3. Happy clappy "liturgy": people LOVE that. They sing and clap, they let their emotions out, cry, get their groove on. Since religion is merely a function of emotion (modernism), it follows that the function of "worship" is to turn that emotion up to the max.
4. Vernacular liturgy: people have been conditioned to believe what Trent condemns with anathema: liturgy is useless if you cannot audibly hear it and perfectly understand it. Trent anathematizes that, but that's what people really believe. Naturally, they recoil at the thought of a service in Latin which you can't even hear most of the time.
5. A dogma-less religion: people today hate dogma. They don't love the Truth; they want to express their own "truth" (which often contradicts Divine Revelation). So the new religion is perfect for them. They are encouraged to do and believe what they want. What's important is that you "care."

These are just a few points, but you get the gist. For the people who actually care about religion, they're getting everything they want. For them, there is no crisis. Things are much better for them than they were before.
Chesterton Wrote:"At least five times, therefore, with the Arian and the Albigensian, with the Humanist sceptic, after Voltaire and after Darwin, the Faith has to all appearance gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died.

And still, Chesterton is affirming that there was, in fact, a dog.

Yes, the dog will die. But I say that the dog exists. I'll even say that those who deny the existence of the dog are wrong. Even more, though there there were other dogs in the past, they were in the streets and in the forests; today the dog is in the sanctuary. It's turned it into a doghouse, mastered the pastors, and trained the people to bark. It eats the sheep and shags the lambs. This dog is having its day.
(12-16-2011, 12:19 AM)Jackson K. Eskew Wrote: [ -> ]Adam, you preach bovine contentment.

And he blinked.

Not blinking, but scratching my head. Huh?

Can you amplify the meaning of this phrase? Did a quick search, but no help there.

Contentment is a good thing, however.

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