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(01-30-2012, 03:05 PM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]A posse ad esse non valet illatio:  Unless you have a credible example of a saint venerated by Holy Mother Church who has found salvation via baptismus flaminis or by the mere vow of baptism, then you cannot make a valid inference of the actuality of such being salvific by the mere possibility.

-- Nicole

...

Well, there many examples in the Martyrology of Saints who achieved salvation via Baptism of Blood, which is part of the same theological doctrine you reject.  Does that help?  :LOL:
(01-30-2012, 06:48 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2012, 03:35 AM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2012, 03:26 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Do those who deny the theological possibility of the salvific efficacy of a desire for baptism animated by perfect charity understand that this "baptism of desire" is not equal to the sacrament of baptism--that it doesn't imprint an indelible mark on the soul? It confers the sacramental effects of justification outside of the sacramental sign proper to the sacrament, as St. Thomas teaches.

INPEFESS, they don't think "or" means "or" when the Council of Trent uses the word.  You'll have to go more basic than that to communicate with this mindset.

:LOL:

Reception is in the mode of the reciver.  If the word "or" causes confusion, "justification" will be much more difficult to understand.
(01-30-2012, 06:47 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]Theologically, everything is possible because with God, nothing is impossible, however, the Church teaches as de fide that: Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.)

Where does BOD fit in with the above de fide teaching?

Read Ott or Aquinas.  They fully explain how it fits in.  You realize that traditionally, obstinance is not necessarily good, right?
(01-30-2012, 10:05 AM)Gregory I Wrote: [ -> ]Does God command impossibilities?

Yea or Nay?

Of course not that is why baptism or the desire thereof are necessary for salvation.  As the Church teaches.
(01-30-2012, 03:51 PM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2012, 03:05 PM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]A posse ad esse non valet illatio:  Unless you have a credible example of a saint venerated by Holy Mother Church who has found salvation via baptismus flaminis or by the mere vow of baptism, then you cannot make a valid inference of the actuality of such being salvific by the mere possibility.

-- Nicole

...

Well, there many examples in the Martyrology of Saints who achieved salvation via Baptism of Blood, which is part of the same theological doctrine you reject.  Does that help?  :LOL:

Change subjects as you wish.  :LOL: :eyeroll:
(01-30-2012, 03:13 AM)moneil Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2012, 11:51 PM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]Pope St. Pius X never taught "baptism of desire" that I know of.  Though, to my recollection, the Bishop of Mantua does have a teaching of "baptism of desire" attributed to him, though his Catechism of Christian Doctrine isn't in print in its entirety any longer in order to be certain that he actually did teach "baptism of desire."

-- Nicole

The Catechism of Saint Pius X http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/ma...pindex.htm

Quote:17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Um...firstly the Catechismo della Dottrina Cristiana was never bound on the universal Church when it was published in 1908...and secondly, that quotation is from another book called Compendium of Catechetical Instruction by one Msgr. Hagan which was published in 1910.

-- Nicole
(01-30-2012, 03:20 AM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2012, 11:51 PM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]St. Thomas Aquinas did not teach baptism of desire, as you've proven by quoting him.  He did teach three baptisms, one which was the Sacrament, two which were contained in the Sacrament (baptism of repentance and blood).

:LOL:

Okay, obviously you don't understand the words involved.  St. Thomas didn't teach Baptism of Desire, but he did.  Who's contradicting themselves now?  :LOL:

Firstly, I am a she...which is third person singular, not a third person plural (they or them).

Secondly, and I will repeat, St. Thomas taught, as you've proven by quoting him: the Sacrament of Baptism which contains two analogies that he also calls baptism: of repentance and of blood...NOT desire... :)

-- Nicole
(01-30-2012, 07:13 PM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]Secondly, and I will repeat, St. Thomas taught, as you've proven by quoting him: the Sacrament of Baptism which contains two analogies that he also calls baptism: of repentance and of blood...NOT desire... :)

Baptism of desire is the same thing as Baptism of repentance.  Whoever says otherwise is misunderstanding one or the other (if not both).

St. Thomas does teach that the Sacrament of Baptism contains the other two baptisms,  here:
"St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica III Q66 A11" Wrote:The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

But he also very clearly teaches that that one can exist apart from the others:
"St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica III Q66 A11" Wrote:In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance.

Read:  http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article11
But also read: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article2

I'm tempted to copy them here, but instead I ask you to read them.
(01-30-2012, 07:08 PM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2012, 03:13 AM)moneil Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2012, 11:51 PM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]Pope St. Pius X never taught "baptism of desire" that I know of.  Though, to my recollection, the Bishop of Mantua does have a teaching of "baptism of desire" attributed to him, though his Catechism of Christian Doctrine isn't in print in its entirety any longer in order to be certain that he actually did teach "baptism of desire."

-- Nicole

The Catechism of Saint Pius X http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/ma...pindex.htm

Quote:17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Um...firstly the Catechismo della Dottrina Cristiana was never bound on the universal Church when it was published in 1908...and secondly, that quotation is from another book called Compendium of Catechetical Instruction by one Msgr. Hagan which was published in 1910.

-- Nicole


Um …

Firstly, it is well known that Catechismo della dottrina Cristiana, Pubblicato per Ordine del Sommo Pontifice San Pio X was not “bound on the universal Church” and no one has claimed otherwise.  It was prescribe to be used in the ecclesiastical province of Rome and its use did spread to other parts of Italy.  I have read that His Holiness had hoped and intended that it be used through out the Church.  Part of the reason for its absence at the time in English speaking countries may be because of the popularity of The Douay Catechism of 1649 http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/The%20Douay%20Catechism%20of%201649.pdf in the British Commonwealth and the Baltimore Catechism in the United States (both of which teach BOD/BOB).

Regarding your rather snarky “Though, to my recollection, the Bishop of Mantua does have a teaching of "baptism of desire" attributed to him, though his Catechism of Christian Doctrine isn't in print in its entirety any longer in order to be certain that he actually did teach "baptism of desire." it should be noted that the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X was issued in 1908 whereas His Holiness had Been Bishop of Mantua from 1884 to 1893 when he became Patriarch of Venice.  He was elected Pope in 1903.  His Catechism was issued during his papacy, not before. 

Secondly, Compendium of Catechetical Instruction by the Right Reverend Monsignor John Hagan, published in Dublin in 1910 IS the English translation of Saint Pius X’s Catechism.  As the EWTN edition states:
Quote: The only book where I was able to find the authentic text (of the Pius X Catechism) is the excellent Compendium of Catechetical Instruction by the Right Reverend Monsignor John Hagan, first published in Dublin in 1910, and containing for each chapter of the Catechism the relevant part from the Catechism of the Council of Trent, the questions and answers of the Catechism of Saint Pius X and Father Raineri's Catechetical Instructions, which were very popular in the nineteenth century.

I have located FOUR online editions of the Catechism of Saint Pius X.  ALL FOUR have the same exact question and answer:

[quote]
17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.


http://www.ewtn.com/library/catechsm/piusxcat.htm

http://sites.google.com/site/apostolicap...int-pius-x

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/ma...pindex.htm

http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/Piu...US%20X.htm
(01-30-2012, 06:47 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2012, 03:26 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Do those who deny the theological possibility of the salvific efficacy of a desire for baptism animated by perfect charity understand that this "baptism of desire" is not equal to the sacrament of baptism--that it doesn't imprint an indelible mark on the soul? It confers the sacramental effects of justification outside of the sacramental sign proper to the sacrament, as St. Thomas teaches.

Theologically, everything is possible because with God, nothing is impossible, however, the Church teaches as de fide that: Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.)

Where does BOD fit in with the above de fide teaching?

This has been explained. "Necessary," in this theological context, is a theological term pertaining to moral theology which must be understood in the moral theological sense. It is unpacked into various different types. One of these types is a "relative necessity of precept," as theologians have distinguished for centuries. The Catholic Encyclopedia sums up the matter and uses baptism itself to illustrate the very meaning of this important distinction:
Necessity Wrote:Again, in relation to the means necessary to salvation theologians divide necessity into necessity of means and necessity of precept. In the first case the means is so necessary to salvation that without it (absolute necessity) or its substitute (relative necessity), even if the omission is guiltless, the end cannot be reached. Thus faith and baptism of water are necessary by a necessity of means, the former absolutely, the latter relatively, for salvation. In the second case, necessity is based on a positive precept, commanding something the omission of which, unless culpable, does not absolutely prevent the reaching of the end.

Sauvage, George. "Necessity." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 10. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. (emphasis added)

I think that instead of simply rejecting this off-the-cuff, you should try to understand it to see how it fits together. It is possible that you may still reject it, but when we last spoke you stated that your rejection of it was based upon its contradiction of Church teaching. I can only presume, then, that if there is shown to be no contradiction, you will accept it in good will. Understanding the theological nature of "necessity," which teaching preceded the decrees of the Council of Trent by centuries, is the first step to understanding what baptism of desire is and why God would choose to work outside of the visible sign of the sacrament at all.
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