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There is a sense that some folk feel this debate/issue enters the zone of Sedevecantism. It does not however and the reality of the issue is supported by many Catholic Saints and Prophecies.
For the record,I don't believe the seat to be empty, but rather weakly filled in recent decades.Big difference.

Let's look at some prophecy supporting the notion of the True vs Apostate Church:

St Paul said that the Antichrist will not be revealed until "the apostasy comes first" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Our Lady of La Salette

“Lucifer, with a great number of demons will be unchained from Hell. By degrees they shall abolish the Faith, even among persons consecrated to God.”

“In every place there will be extraordinary prodigies, because the true Faith has been extinguished.”

“[T]he abomination shall be seen in holy places, in convents, and then the demon shall make himself the king of hearts.”

“Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist.”

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich

""a false church, and wicked men scheming against the Catholic Church and doing much harm–both in her own time and in the future. And actually saw in a vision this, the enemies of the Church tearing it down and trying to build a new one on strictly human plans–but none of the saints would lend a hand. Later, this church of men is destroyed and the saints of God join in to rebuild the true Church of God, which becomes more glorious than ever before".

http://faithofthefathersapparitions.blog...erich.html

What say the Fishies on this matter?

(01-17-2012, 05:32 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]What say the Fishies on this matter?

It's a useless debate for two reasons:

1) It will inevitably breach the forum rules;

2) It has been done ad nauseam. The arguments are out there for anyone to see. Pray, trust in God, inform yourself and make up your mind.
As St Peter once said 'Where shall we turn Lord, You have the words of Eternal Life" [paraphrase]
There is only one Church.
Always while time lasts.
(01-17-2012, 06:24 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-17-2012, 05:32 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]What say the Fishies on this matter?

It's a useless debate for two reasons:

1) It will inevitably breach the forum rules;

2) It has been done ad nauseam. The arguments are out there for anyone to see. Pray, trust in God, inform yourself and make up your mind.

And useless because which Church do you trust to authoritatively declare the other apostate, especially when Rome is apparently AWOL. While the visions and prophecies are helpful, we don't know how true they are, nor whether we are interpreting them correctly. Not a very sure path in my estimation.
The part about Rome losing the faith is not in the original and that version was put on the index--probably because the idea that the Church of Rome could fall into error was definitively condemned as "manifest heresy" by Pope Sixtus IV in the Bull "Licet ea," Denzinger 730. (the error promoted by Peter de Osma was "the Church of the city of Rome can fall into error").

Scriptorium raises an important issue. There needs to be an externally verifiable authority--it's why Eastern Orthodoxy is internally inconsistent. For them, you can have A consider B to be a legitimate church, B consider C to be a legitimate church, but A not to consider C a legitimate church--so A=B=C≠A. They also have no fixed standard of orthodoxy--theirs is a meaningless tautology: the standard of orthodoxy is orthodox people. So when there's a dispute with well-informed, well-meaning people on both sides, there's no real way to settle the issue. Which side is the orthodox side? On the other hand, the Catholic principle enunciated by St. Ireneaus is that every church must agree with the Church of the city of Rome--and this is proper because of the principle behind Sixtus IV's condemnation above. Rome, as the See of St. Peter, is the rock, the fixed standard. That's why Bl.Pius IX condemned the idea that the First See could be transferred out of Rome in "Ad Apostolicae"  (cited by the Syllabus #34). The primacy is not just permanent, it is permanent in Rome so every generation can look to the same place, the simple and the intelligent. The particular/local Church of Rome is that visible, externally verifiable standard.

As an aside, this is why I think certain SSPX writers err when they harp on Rome for supposedly talking about a continuity of subject rather than a continuity of truth. For a Catholic, that's a false dichotomy since the the two cannot be separated (I think this is either the cause of or the result of their "eternal Rome" versus actual Rome dichotomy). The true religion perdures in the one subject, which itself perdures until the end of time. The true religion does not exist apart from the primatial Church and the primatial Church is fixed at Rome.

That's not to say that some sort of bad organization or "church" that opposes the Catholic Church doesn't or won't exist or that the Catholic Church won't be persecuted or won't shrink or lose members, but rather the Church of Rome will not be on the side of the apostate church.


(01-17-2012, 05:32 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]There is a sense that some folk feel this debate/issue enters the zone of Sedevecantism. It does not however and the reality of the issue is supported by many Catholic Saints and Prophecies.
For the record,I don't believe the seat to be empty, but rather weakly filled in recent decades.Big difference.

Let's look at some prophecy supporting the notion of the True vs Apostate Church:

St Paul said that the Antichrist will not be revealed until "the apostasy comes first" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Our Lady of La Salette

“Lucifer, with a great number of demons will be unchained from Hell. By degrees they shall abolish the Faith, even among persons consecrated to God.”

“In every place there will be extraordinary prodigies, because the true Faith has been extinguished.”

“[T]he abomination shall be seen in holy places, in convents, and then the demon shall make himself the king of hearts.”

“Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist.”

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich

""a false church, and wicked men scheming against the Catholic Church and doing much harm–both in her own time and in the future. And actually saw in a vision this, the enemies of the Church tearing it down and trying to build a new one on strictly human plans–but none of the saints would lend a hand. Later, this church of men is destroyed and the saints of God join in to rebuild the true Church of God, which becomes more glorious than ever before".

http://faithofthefathersapparitions.blog...erich.html

What say the Fishies on this matter?

You left out Fatima, which is a very similar message to La Salette. I think the third secret predicts the great apostasy. thats my hunch. Very interesting topic. It's a shame Catholics here are afraid to discuss it.
Not so much "afraid" but rather tired.
(01-17-2012, 11:36 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Not so much "afraid" but rather tired.

Get your beauty rest later, the fight is still on.
(01-17-2012, 11:52 PM)Spencer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-17-2012, 11:36 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Not so much "afraid" but rather tired.

Get your beauty rest later, the fight is still on.

And it will be on for quite a few years more.

You need to pick your battles.
(01-18-2012, 12:01 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-17-2012, 11:52 PM)Spencer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-17-2012, 11:36 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Not so much "afraid" but rather tired.

Get your beauty rest later, the fight is still on.

And it will be on for quite a few years more.

You need to pick your battles.
But not with us Papists, Spencer.
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