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(01-23-2012, 03:04 PM)Jesse Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]Papists aren't catholics anyway, they're ignorant of the limits of papal power and give the rest of us Catholics a bad name.

You need to check out the definition of Papist.  It doesn't mean someone who is ignorant of the limits of Papal power.  Please don't redefine words.

I'm English I know what it means and I know how it's being used in this context  :)
(01-23-2012, 02:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:53 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Williamson sounds like an Anglican in this article, sadly. Those damn Roman Papists!

Oh please  :eyeroll: Papists aren't catholics anyway, they're ignorant of the limits of papal power and give the rest of us Catholics a bad name.

...but seriously Bp Williamson an anglican  :LOL: if you'd met him you'd never say that

Neocon converts sometimes get told they have traces of their former religion in them. JayneK from here sometimes gets called a crypto-Jew because she used to be Jewish if I remember correctly. Bishop Williamson may indeed still have some of that Anglicanism in him. I don't mean to offend him or you, but that's just how I see it. I sympathize with the SSPX and Bishop Fellay, but in my own personal and unprofessional layman who-cares-what-I-say opinion Bishop Williamson is walking the tightrope between the SSPX position and true schism.
(01-23-2012, 03:10 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:53 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Williamson sounds like an Anglican in this article, sadly. Those damn Roman Papists!

Oh please  :eyeroll: Papists aren't catholics anyway, they're ignorant of the limits of papal power and give the rest of us Catholics a bad name.

...but seriously Bp Williamson an anglican  :LOL: if you'd met him you'd never say that

Neocon converts sometimes get told they have traces of their former religion in them. JayneK from here sometimes gets called a crypto-Jew because she used to be Jewish if I remember correctly. Bishop Williamson may indeed still have some of that Anglicanism in him. I don't mean to offend him or you, but that's just how I see it. I sympathize with the SSPX and Bishop Fellay, but in my own personal and unprofessional layman who-cares-what-I-say opinion Bishop Williamson is walking the tightrope between the SSPX position and true schism.

I'm not offended, I just respect Bp Williamson that's all  :)

To be fair I don't like the whole idea of saying people have traces of their system in them, I'm not saying you're doing it but it smacks of a 'Cradle Catholic' supremacy complex, when the simple fact is Converts are often more fervent and know more about their faith than Cradle Catholics, its also uncharitable, arrogant and somewhat scandalous. Again I'm not saying you do it, its just something I've come across now and then and being a convert myself I'm sensitive to those sorts of issues.

As for Neo cons, to be fair its not that they have their former religion in them its that having renounced their former religion they cannot even begin to think that the Pope is wrong about anything.
(01-23-2012, 03:15 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:10 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:53 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Williamson sounds like an Anglican in this article, sadly. Those damn Roman Papists!

Oh please  :eyeroll: Papists aren't catholics anyway, they're ignorant of the limits of papal power and give the rest of us Catholics a bad name.

...but seriously Bp Williamson an anglican  :LOL: if you'd met him you'd never say that

Neocon converts sometimes get told they have traces of their former religion in them. JayneK from here sometimes gets called a crypto-Jew because she used to be Jewish if I remember correctly. Bishop Williamson may indeed still have some of that Anglicanism in him. I don't mean to offend him or you, but that's just how I see it. I sympathize with the SSPX and Bishop Fellay, but in my own personal and unprofessional layman who-cares-what-I-say opinion Bishop Williamson is walking the tightrope between the SSPX position and true schism.

I'm not offended, I just respect Bp Williamson that's all  :)

To be fair I don't like the whole idea of saying people have traces of their system in them, I'm not saying you're doing it but it smacks of a 'Cradle Catholic' supremacy complex, when the simple fact is Converts are often more fervent and know more about their faith than Cradle Catholics, its also uncharitable, arrogant and somewhat scandalous. Again I'm not saying you do it, its just something I've come across now and then and being a convert myself I'm sensitive to those sorts of issues.

As for Neo cons, to be fair its not that they have their former religion in them its that having renounced their former religion they cannot even begin to think that the Pope is wrong about anything.

I respect Bishop Williamson as a Bishop, of course. I just hope that if and when the SSPX regularize all will go smoothly. He seems like a very interesting man; one that could really hold a crowd, kind of like a trad Bishop Sheen. Ah well, guess we shall see, all in God's time. Sometimes his articles are good reads. This one I just didn't like. It felt personal. Maybe I'm just giving him a hard time though. Too much posting today I think, it's given me too much room to think that my opinions must be heard. I had an energy drink earlier, perhaps that's why. Last post of the week! God bless TrentCath, chat later!
(01-23-2012, 03:25 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:15 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:10 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:53 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Williamson sounds like an Anglican in this article, sadly. Those damn Roman Papists!

Oh please  :eyeroll: Papists aren't catholics anyway, they're ignorant of the limits of papal power and give the rest of us Catholics a bad name.

...but seriously Bp Williamson an anglican  :LOL: if you'd met him you'd never say that

Neocon converts sometimes get told they have traces of their former religion in them. JayneK from here sometimes gets called a crypto-Jew because she used to be Jewish if I remember correctly. Bishop Williamson may indeed still have some of that Anglicanism in him. I don't mean to offend him or you, but that's just how I see it. I sympathize with the SSPX and Bishop Fellay, but in my own personal and unprofessional layman who-cares-what-I-say opinion Bishop Williamson is walking the tightrope between the SSPX position and true schism.

I'm not offended, I just respect Bp Williamson that's all  :)

To be fair I don't like the whole idea of saying people have traces of their system in them, I'm not saying you're doing it but it smacks of a 'Cradle Catholic' supremacy complex, when the simple fact is Converts are often more fervent and know more about their faith than Cradle Catholics, its also uncharitable, arrogant and somewhat scandalous. Again I'm not saying you do it, its just something I've come across now and then and being a convert myself I'm sensitive to those sorts of issues.

As for Neo cons, to be fair its not that they have their former religion in them its that having renounced their former religion they cannot even begin to think that the Pope is wrong about anything.

I respect Bishop Williamson as a Bishop, of course. I just hope that if and when the SSPX regularize all will go smoothly. He seems like a very interesting man; one that could really hold a crowd, kind of like a trad Bishop Sheen. Ah well, guess we shall see, all in God's time. Sometimes his articles are good reads. This one I just didn't like. It felt personal. Maybe I'm just giving him a hard time though. Too much posting today I think, it's given me too much room to think that my opinions must be heard. I had an energy drink earlier, perhaps that's why. Last post of the week! God bless TrentCath, chat later!

He is, he really is something else. I'm just blessed to see him every now and again in London.

Sorry for drawing you too much into the debate  :blush: Good luck with everything
(01-23-2012, 03:43 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:25 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:15 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:10 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:53 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Williamson sounds like an Anglican in this article, sadly. Those damn Roman Papists!

Oh please  :eyeroll: Papists aren't catholics anyway, they're ignorant of the limits of papal power and give the rest of us Catholics a bad name.

...but seriously Bp Williamson an anglican  :LOL: if you'd met him you'd never say that

Neocon converts sometimes get told they have traces of their former religion in them. JayneK from here sometimes gets called a crypto-Jew because she used to be Jewish if I remember correctly. Bishop Williamson may indeed still have some of that Anglicanism in him. I don't mean to offend him or you, but that's just how I see it. I sympathize with the SSPX and Bishop Fellay, but in my own personal and unprofessional layman who-cares-what-I-say opinion Bishop Williamson is walking the tightrope between the SSPX position and true schism.

I'm not offended, I just respect Bp Williamson that's all  :)

To be fair I don't like the whole idea of saying people have traces of their system in them, I'm not saying you're doing it but it smacks of a 'Cradle Catholic' supremacy complex, when the simple fact is Converts are often more fervent and know more about their faith than Cradle Catholics, its also uncharitable, arrogant and somewhat scandalous. Again I'm not saying you do it, its just something I've come across now and then and being a convert myself I'm sensitive to those sorts of issues.

As for Neo cons, to be fair its not that they have their former religion in them its that having renounced their former religion they cannot even begin to think that the Pope is wrong about anything.

I respect Bishop Williamson as a Bishop, of course. I just hope that if and when the SSPX regularize all will go smoothly. He seems like a very interesting man; one that could really hold a crowd, kind of like a trad Bishop Sheen. Ah well, guess we shall see, all in God's time. Sometimes his articles are good reads. This one I just didn't like. It felt personal. Maybe I'm just giving him a hard time though. Too much posting today I think, it's given me too much room to think that my opinions must be heard. I had an energy drink earlier, perhaps that's why. Last post of the week! God bless TrentCath, chat later!

He is, he really is something else. I'm just blessed to see him every now and again in London.

Sorry for drawing you too much into the debate  :blush: Good luck with everything

Not at all your fault, sometimes I like having a good back and forth :) Thanks buddy! [this is def the last post!]
(01-23-2012, 04:03 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:43 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:25 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:15 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 03:10 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 02:53 PM)SPB Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Williamson sounds like an Anglican in this article, sadly. Those damn Roman Papists!

Oh please  :eyeroll: Papists aren't catholics anyway, they're ignorant of the limits of papal power and give the rest of us Catholics a bad name.

...but seriously Bp Williamson an anglican  :LOL: if you'd met him you'd never say that

Neocon converts sometimes get told they have traces of their former religion in them. JayneK from here sometimes gets called a crypto-Jew because she used to be Jewish if I remember correctly. Bishop Williamson may indeed still have some of that Anglicanism in him. I don't mean to offend him or you, but that's just how I see it. I sympathize with the SSPX and Bishop Fellay, but in my own personal and unprofessional layman who-cares-what-I-say opinion Bishop Williamson is walking the tightrope between the SSPX position and true schism.

I'm not offended, I just respect Bp Williamson that's all  :)

To be fair I don't like the whole idea of saying people have traces of their system in them, I'm not saying you're doing it but it smacks of a 'Cradle Catholic' supremacy complex, when the simple fact is Converts are often more fervent and know more about their faith than Cradle Catholics, its also uncharitable, arrogant and somewhat scandalous. Again I'm not saying you do it, its just something I've come across now and then and being a convert myself I'm sensitive to those sorts of issues.

As for Neo cons, to be fair its not that they have their former religion in them its that having renounced their former religion they cannot even begin to think that the Pope is wrong about anything.

I respect Bishop Williamson as a Bishop, of course. I just hope that if and when the SSPX regularize all will go smoothly. He seems like a very interesting man; one that could really hold a crowd, kind of like a trad Bishop Sheen. Ah well, guess we shall see, all in God's time. Sometimes his articles are good reads. This one I just didn't like. It felt personal. Maybe I'm just giving him a hard time though. Too much posting today I think, it's given me too much room to think that my opinions must be heard. I had an energy drink earlier, perhaps that's why. Last post of the week! God bless TrentCath, chat later!

He is, he really is something else. I'm just blessed to see him every now and again in London.

Sorry for drawing you too much into the debate  :blush: Good luck with everything

Not at all your fault, sometimes I like having a good back and forth :) Thanks buddy! [this is def the last post!]

Don't reply to this  :P

and God Bless
(01-23-2012, 02:14 AM)Dragonslayer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 01:41 AM)calicatholic Wrote: [ -> ]It's very convenient to say " well, we're outside of the authority of the Church, so we're immune from needing to conform to the errors".  I think the real danger is that the longer this situation exists - now a full generation - you will have Catholics who grow up in the SSPX Church who know nothing but that, and are so alienated from other Catholics that they cling to SSPX-only Masses.  This is the attitude of schism that must be avoided.  The longer it goes on the higher the chance of a split between some of the SSPX clergy and lay Catholics from the Church.  I really hope this does not happen.

I don't believe that is a real danger at all. I converted to SSPX Catholicism a few years ago, so have only known the "SSPX church" and only attend SSPX masses, but do not see myself as schismatic. I am a Catholic, it's just that I choose to follow traditional Catholicism. The fact that the modern majority of the Catholic Church has veered off this path is a problem it has to look at itself ,and the more I learn about the crisis in this modern church the more I think that they, the modern Catholic Church, and not the SSPX, face the bigger problems.
THIS.
(01-23-2012, 01:41 AM)calicatholic Wrote: [ -> ]It's very convenient to say " well, we're outside of the authority of the Church, so we're immune from needing to conform to the errors".  I think the real danger is that the longer this situation exists - now a full generation - you will have Catholics who grow up in the SSPX Church who know nothing but that, and are so alienated from other Catholics that they cling to SSPX-only Masses.  This is the attitude of schism that must be avoided.  The longer it goes on the higher the chance of a split between some of the SSPX clergy and lay Catholics from the Church.  I really hope this does not happen.

You may not agree or like the changes in the Church in the last 40 years, but lay NO Catholics ARE Catholic.  It's as simple as that.  It is NOT a new religion.  To say so is to call the Pope a leader of a new religion.  There is only one Pope, and he sits in Rome, and leads the Church that the SSPX refuses to submit authority to.  It's a very fine line that could quickly take a perilous path.  I dread the day half of the SSPX becomes sedevacantist.

I can't comment on your use of the word "crisis".  You'd have to define it.  I would call the fact that some (not all) SSPX Catholics shun or mock or look down upon NO Catholics, or any non-traditional Catholics, including genuine truth seeking Catholics on CAF which happens frequently here, a crisis.  This non-charitable prideful attitude only increases the divide.  I can't blame some lay Catholics - they are just repeating the attitude given to them from the pulpit.

I know I don't have the solution, but I suspect that neither your nor Bishop Williamson does either.  But if we both act in charity and pray the Rosary maybe the solution will present itself.  It is certainly not as simple as saying "Rome we think you are wrong so we are going to choose to ignore your authority until we think you are right".  That's not the way it works.

So the solution is instead to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that everything's hunky dory in the church? I'm glad you mentioned the need to pray the Rosary, you must of course know that the SSPX has organised several rosary crusades and has organised a 12 million rosary crusade from 2011-2012? You can read about it http://www.sspx.org/rosary_crusade_2011/...e_2011.htm

Regardless the Society does nothing wrong by refusing the heterodox commands of Rome and following only those which are in accordance with the faith.
(01-23-2012, 01:41 AM)calicatholic Wrote: [ -> ]It's very convenient to say " well, we're outside of the authority of the Church, so we're immune from needing to conform to the errors".  I think the real danger is that the longer this situation exists - now a full generation - you will have Catholics who grow up in the SSPX Church who know nothing but that, and are so alienated from other Catholics that they cling to SSPX-only Masses.  This is the attitude of schism that must be avoided.  The longer it goes on the higher the chance of a split between some of the SSPX clergy and lay Catholics from the Church.  I really hope this does not happen.

You may not agree or like the changes in the Church in the last 40 years, but lay NO Catholics ARE Catholic.  It's as simple as that.  It is NOT a new religion.  To say so is to call the Pope a leader of a new religion.  There is only one Pope, and he sits in Rome, and leads the Church that the SSPX refuses to submit authority to.  It's a very fine line that could quickly take a perilous path.  I dread the day half of the SSPX becomes sedevacantist.

I can't comment on your use of the word "crisis".  You'd have to define it.  I would call the fact that some (not all) SSPX Catholics shun or mock or look down upon NO Catholics, or any non-traditional Catholics, including genuine truth seeking Catholics on CAF which happens frequently here, a crisis.  This non-charitable prideful attitude only increases the divide.  I can't blame some lay Catholics - they are just repeating the attitude given to them from the pulpit.

I know I don't have the solution, but I suspect that neither your nor Bishop Williamson does either.  But if we both act in charity and pray the Rosary maybe the solution will present itself.  It is certainly not as simple as saying "Rome we think you are wrong so we are going to choose to ignore your authority until we think you are right".  That's not the way it works.

Very well stated, Calicath. 

I used to have my son at an SSPX school. He told me about a conversation among the students where they asked, "What religion would you want to be if you couldn't be Catholic?"  At least one of them said, "Novus Ordo."

When people are raising their children to think of "Novus Ordo" as a religion - one that is not Catholic- something is very wrong.
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