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Full Version: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Revolution & Counter-Revolution, and the TFPs?
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What do you think? I'm now reading his Revolution and Counter-Revolution, and it strikes me as brilliant and right. But what about the talk of the TFPs as cultish? Is this talk legitimate? Even if they are, I'm inclined to separate them from Plinio. You?
Revolution and Counter-Revolution at first glance just seems to be conservatism sprinkled with Catholicism. It's much more than that. Plinio and the TFP present their ideas in such a way that what they seem to be offering, isn't what they are really offering.  Plinio and the TFP's goal is to advance the idea that people are inherently unequal. They aren't defending the present class structure or the idea that people are unequal by ability.  They believe that certain people are from birth born with qualities that make them better than vast majority of the population and that these people are who should govern society and the Church.  Thus, Plinio and the TFP never complained much about Vatican II or the Novus Ordo because they aren't the problem.  The problem is that peasants like Saint Pius X got elected Pope.  If the Church had simply continued to elect pontiffs from established families everything would be so much better in the Church.  Likewise, the problem in society is the proper kind of people aren't leading society.  I need to stress again...they believe class is a bigger problem today in the Church than Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, and modernist theology. 

Plinio and the TFP basically offer the flip side of liberation theology except the class they favor isn't the poor, but the landed aristocracy.  In fact, they frequently blame the poor for what has gone wrong in the world, which seems to fly in the face of Christ and Church tradition. What they offer isn't a Catholic approach to society and politics, but a warped political ideology disguised as Catholicism.  I am not critiquing monarchy or aristocracy here.  These forms of government can work. I just find the idea that class is more important than religious ideas repugnant. 

In addition, the TFP just isn't honest with their positions.  They don't make clear the above is their goal.  There is a whole bunch of other stuff they believe that they don't publicly share.  Their America Needs Fatima sister organization won't publicly say what their view of the consecration of Russia is. 

Finally, a few years ago a website did a hatchet job them.  A lot of the critiques this website made were unfair, but the TFP's response was troubling in my mind.  While they dispatched of some of the baseless accusations, they presented theologically troubling views in defense of some of the accusations.  Thus, the organization said there was nothing heretical in describing Plinio's mother as the "light and source of light" (descriptions typically used of God) or as a "mediatrix" (a title reserved for Our Lady) although they did admit it was best not to do so (p. 13-14, document below).

The following document has many more defenses that left my head scratching:

http://www.tfp.org/ref/Unity.pdf
I'm not yet in a position to affirm or refute these charges. I do see, however, that on pg. 18 Plinio refers to Pius X as "the great and holy Pontiff."

Anyone in a position to objectively speak to Someone's charges, please weigh in.
Just keep reading Revolution and Counter-Revolution and you'll see. Really pay attention to what he thinks a Counter-Revolution looks like. 
(01-23-2012, 02:07 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]Just keep reading Revolution and Counter-Revolution and you'll see. Really pay attention to what he thinks a Counter-Revolution looks like. 

Will do. In the meantime, let me run this thesis by you:

"There are people with a God-given title to rule."

What do you think?
I've read Prof. Plinio, as well as others of the TFP, Nobility and Analogous Traditional Elite.

I do not agree with the notion of nobility and this overemphasis, in my view, of classes.

I am the descendant of poor farmers from two Spanish colonies, so obviously I have biases. And many trads would strongly disagree with me on this, but I don't care.

The Middle Ages and times up to the very recent modern era (1900s) were great. I often wished that I could live then instead of now. But once, the only trad in my Novus Ordo high school, my favorite teacher and a mentor, told me: "You're thinking about a vocation, but in those days, you may not have been even able to pursue that because your poor."

In a sense, its true. So much would be decided based on class, family name, and money rather than some merit. Class, name, and money do matter a lot even today, but anyone can attend a university and work in a field they like. I wouldn't want to be a farmer in the Bajío, Mexico or living in some village in the Philippines.
On a purely practical basis the TFP folk's are always there when Our Lord or Or Lady is publicly mocked or desecrated in the public arena. They are always ready to defend them!
I just found this documentary on Plinio:

http://gloria.tv/?media=177273
(01-23-2012, 01:30 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]Their America Needs Fatima sister organization won't publicly say what their view of the consecration of Russia is. 

That's right.  I have been receiving e-mail from America Needs Fatima for over a year after signing an ANF petition that was posted in this forum and they have yet to mention anything about the consecration of Russia.  Not one thing.
(01-24-2012, 02:21 AM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-23-2012, 01:30 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: [ -> ]Their America Needs Fatima sister organization won't publicly say what their view of the consecration of Russia is. 

That's right.  I have been receiving e-mail from America Needs Fatima for over a year after signing an ANF petition that was posted in this forum and they have yet to mention anything about the consecration of Russia.  Not one thing.

Here is a very strange thread from Fish Eaters with a special guest appearance by Robert Ritchie, president of the American TFP. 

See if over the course of 13 pages you can figure out whether he thinks Russia has been consecrated or not! 

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...714.0.html

(I am not big into this controversy, but I don't think it's too much to ask if your Fatima organization thinks Russia has been consecrated or not!)
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