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(01-30-2012, 09:14 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I have a question for you all who say that the "feminization" of the church is sickening. 

If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right? It wouldn't have kumbaya singing, hand-holding clergy. I wasn't sure if Voris, in his series on "masculinity", was bemoaning the lack of manly/male presence on the parish level - or some other level.

Now the Apostles were evangelists and missioners, and the Church Fathers were theologians and apologists, and those roles (preaching, theology, canon law, apologetics) are still dominated by men. Pope, bishops, priests and deacons are still men. Of course, as I was saying earlier, they are PASTORS, not “bloodthirsty” “combative” “aggressive” “conquering” warriors – words that Voris used in his series, while flashing scenes of Crusaders in the background, as if this is the epitome of Catholic manhood. Instead he should have flashed scenes of Jesuit missioners being tortured for the faith. Or St. Ignatius being led to the lions at 80 years of age, frail as he was. But Voris won't include martyrs in his flashbacks, for there were just as many women who shared that victory.

But let's assume Voris is bemoaning the “feminization” of parish life. Pardon my bluntness, but how much testosterone do you need to sign up for Eucharistic adoration? Last fall we had a weekend for 40 Hours Devotion and most of the names on the list were female, just a few males. If spending an hour with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is too “girly” for the men in our parish, then they can keep manning the beer booth at the festival for all I care. I know that the presence of women is sometimes off-putting to men, but it doesn't keep them away from the soccer games and the Monte Carlo nights, where there are just as many moms as there are dads.

The problem we have in the Church today stems from various things... Feminism is part of it. But "the feminine" is not. Please tell me when Holy MOTHER Church was ever “bloodthirsty” and all-muscle? Voris sounds like he wants to “Islam-ize” Catholicism. “Real Catholic Men” aren't intimidated by women!

Greetings StrictCatholicGirl,

First of all, Michael Voris is talking about the masculine attitude and way of problem solving. When he's talking about the 'feminization' of the Church, he's talking about the loss of masculinity in the life of the Church, which has been replaced with a more feminine approach. Each gender has it's own behaviours, roles and attributes, obviously with males being masculine in nature and females being feminine in nature. The problem is when one of these dominate the other, or when the distinction between the two is removed. This is what has happened in Western Society by the feminists for the past 50 years - with the feminine taking over the roles of the masculine, and the minimization of gender roles.  The virtues of masculinity - being bold, blunt and tough, have been overtaken by more feminine approaches. Excommunicating publicly scandalous heretics and dissidents - a very masculine approach. Opening dialogue to solve the problem, a more feminine one. That is the difference. The former has been just about extinguished in the past 50 years in the Church.


Quote:"The problem we have in the Church today stems from various things... Feminism is part of it. But "the feminine" is not. Please tell me when Holy MOTHER Church was ever “bloodthirsty” and all-muscle? Voris sounds like he wants to “Islam-ize” Catholicism. “Real Catholic Men” aren't intimidated by women!"

That's not what Michael Voris was saying. He was saying the absence of masculinity has caused an exodus of Catholic men, and that "the Church has been feminized to the point of being a turn-off to many men"
1. He goes on "The constant retreat by leaders and officials in the face of these two juggernaughts {Feminism and homosexual militancy} simply turns off men, and they do what every person does, they vote with their feet."1

1. "Why Men Don't Go To Mass" - RealCatholicTV

Blessings,

TraditionalistThomas.
(01-31-2012, 01:43 AM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2012, 01:37 AM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2012, 01:09 AM)Ineffable1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2012, 10:04 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: [ -> ]Who stood by Our Lord's side during the passion? Oh yeah--women did, because they were loyal and compassionate instead of being scandalized by what looked (to the apostles) like He had lost the battle.

At the risk of going off on a tangent, I cannot let this ridiculous statement stand, because it is repeated ad nauseum by women. There were a simple reason why most of the men scattered and the women were at the cross. The men were known to be His disciples, taught and trained by Him. As such they would have been considered almost equally dangerous as Jesus Himself as possible leaders of an anti-Roman revolt. That put them at the same risk of crucifixion. The women, being women, were in no such danger. John was probably considered equally safe and non-threatening by virtue of still being a young man (probably in his late teens or very early twenties) at the time.

Now now don't let facts get in the way of a favorite sacred cow of the Catholic feminists.

Uh, a very traditional priest I've known my whole life has always talked about this incident exactly how I just described it. And even if it's true that the apostles scattered because they were afraid of being killed, they still failed to at least try to defend Our Lord. And I seriously doubt St. John was exempt for the reason you mention because he would have been just as well known as the others and it isn't as though he was a child.

And Dutchman, how dare you call me a feminist?

Couple things....
1) No one is calling you a feminist, but you've got to admit that tone can say a lot.  What you wrote is forceful, sarcastic, and sounds like "woman in this situation were better than the men."  I'm not accusing you of being a feminist, just saying you might want to watch how you convey things if you don't want to come across a certain way. 
2) However you meant it, thats just your interpretation of what happened.  Whether or not you are repeating what a Priest has told you still only means that its an interpretation. 
3) I agree with both of you.  The women WERE loyal and compassionate and the men weren't there BECAUSE they were scared and in hiding.  They were well known to be followers of Christ and presented a possible threat to the Romans, therefore putting them at risk for arrest and crucifixion. Again, just my interpretation.     
(01-30-2012, 05:52 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Of course, I realize St. Francis is famous for being the “peaceful man by the bird bath.” That's because he wrote enough canticles to the creatures to merit that image, though I admit it's not a complete picture. What we need is a COMPLETE picture, not a so-called masculine one vs. a feminine one.

The problem with our world today is that it is very hard to conjure a correct balancing of the masculine and feminine within the persona.  The medieval period was rather more effective at this, and the ideal is summed up in the motto of the Calverts "fatta macchio, parole femine," which means "manly deed, womanly words."  That was the idea of courtesy.  In a world when when all men were rugged, what set a man apart was his ability to exercise restraint, to reflect.  If one thinks of the Grimm's Tales, the heroes (men and women both) do not rely on their physical power, or their beauty - they are heroic because they think.  Having lost this balance, St. Francis today appears as a conflicting personality, while in truth, he was in extraordinary balance - a perfect harmonization of the medieval values which were quintessentially Catholic.  He was courtly, he was tough, he was devout, and he voluntarilly became poor in imitation of Christ.  He led by example, which is the last thing leaders today do.  The last man to die in any modern war is the nation's leader.

Vorhis's observations are correct in themselves, and perhaps his attempt to restore masculinity is better than the suppression of its positive aspects in modern society.  For the long haul, though, we need to reject both the crying politician and the macho gangsta.  We need chivalry.  
A little more to chew on, in another thread they are asking about the curse psalms, and trying to reconcile them vis a vis passive non-violent ideal.
The psalms are torturiously translated , the Latin is Direct and manly, yet they've been softened in translation. This I thnk is what you are talking about. The Bute, the English translation,  sounds as if Tiny Tim translated it. Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity, and God Almighty including Him ordered Saul to kill all of the Philistines, man, woman, child, animals. We are shocked by this because we are human. Saul, too was. He lost favor with God because he did not do it.. David his annointed ascended the throne. This is manly and hard for women, and some men to stand. God's ways are not human ways. That goes for men and women. 

According to Fr. Pacwa when Francis landed in the Holy Land he went to the Crusaders laying siege first. He told them to wait as more Crusaders were on the way in a few months, furthermore the way they were attempting to do it was all wrong. He explained how to do it properly and went about his business. On his way home he passed the siege, they were now doing as he had said and were now successful, that is killing Mohammedans in the process of taking the city. He told them so, too ! Not a hippie, flower child at all !

tim
(01-31-2012, 12:56 PM)Tim Wrote: [ -> ]A little more to chew on, in another thread they are asking about the curse psalms, and trying to reconcile them vis a vis passive non-violent ideal.

One of the things my wife noticed after we began to attend the tlm was the frequent prayers for help against adversaries, enemies and devils.  You say it perfectly when you write that this has been replaced by an "official" non violent ideal. 
As Tim said, St. Francis was no pacifistic 13th century flower child.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive...r/08040302

http://www.thepoverello.com/StFrancispreacher.htm
(01-31-2012, 05:16 AM)TraditionalistThomas Wrote: [ -> ]This is what has happened in Western Society by the feminists for the past 50 years - with the feminine taking over the roles of the masculine, and the minimization of gender roles.  The virtues of masculinity - being bold, blunt and tough, have been overtaken by more feminine approaches. Excommunicating publicly scandalous heretics and dissidents - a very masculine approach. Opening dialogue to solve the problem, a more feminine one. That is the difference. The former has been just about extinguished in the past 50 years in the Church.

Why limit it to the last 50 years? Feminization has been going on much longer than that. Female choirs, nuns practically ruling the Church at the local level..... what a joke.
HK hits it for three. Go look at the Bute from the 1880's or so. It looks as if Tiny Tim tip toed through the Breviary in English.

tim 
traditionalthomas Wrote:First of all, Michael Voris is talking about the masculine attitude and way of problem solving. When he's talking about the 'feminization' of the Church, he's talking about the loss of masculinity in the life of the Church, which has been replaced with a more feminine approach. Each gender has it's own behaviours, roles and attributes, obviously with males being masculine in nature and females being feminine in nature. The problem is when one of these dominate the other, or when the distinction between the two is removed. This is what has happened in Western Society by the feminists for the past 50 years - with the feminine taking over the roles of the masculine, and the minimization of gender roles.  The virtues of masculinity - being bold, blunt and tough, have been overtaken by more feminine approaches. Excommunicating publicly scandalous heretics and dissidents - a very masculine approach. Opening dialogue to solve the problem, a more feminine one.

I understand what you are saying – YOU and Vetus and others express yourselves well enough. But I don’t think Voris does, and if you watch him consistently you see a pattern of not just blaming feminists for our problems, but undermining feminine qualities and behaviors. I’m not saying there isn’t a difference between male and female behavior, for goodness sake, and I’m not saying that we don’t need more balance. I’m saying there’s something wrong with always portraying the feminine qualities as weak, OR, worse, attributing downright bad qualities to being “feminine.”

Example: The Church has been infested with liberal clergy and theologians for a long time, at least a hundred years. Pope Pius X wrote an encyclical about the threat of Modernists in 1907. So how is liberalism a feminine quality or the fault of feminists?

Another example: You have cowardly priests today who overlook liturgical abuses and won’t correct them. Voris would call them “emasculated” and “feminized.” Why doesn’t he just call them…….. cowardly? Is cowardice a feminine quality now?

Look at the beatitudes. Blessed are the …….. meek? (Gasp!) Blessed are the merciful……….. double gasp! The peacemakers? Oh, those hippie feminists must have invaded the Mount of the sermon too! Can’t you see how ridiculous this is? The beatitudes transcend gender. Was Jesus demonstrating masculine qualities when he turned over the tables and whipped the merchants? Was he demonstrating feminine qualities when he blessed the children? This kind of thinking is damaging, imo.

Finally, I love St. Francis, birds and all. And he was hanging out in gardens long before Vatican II, Woodstock, and Women’s Lib. 

Look how disgusting feminist liberals in the 13th century depicted Saint Francis! Such a presentation has no place whatsoever in Catholicism!

[Image: Francis_preaching_the_birds.fresco._mast...Assisi.jpg]
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