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Full Version: Souls in heaven rejoicing at the sight of the damned?
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(02-05-2012, 10:20 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 09:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]There's nothing "morbid" about theology. You're all having a knee jerk reaction without even considering the theological concepts behind it.

It's not like the elect are laughing at the damned like spoiled children in the schoolyard but that they rightfully rejoice in God's justice. Who wouldn't, after all? God's justice is perfect.

God's justice is perfect, but the vision of God mocking the damned comes, in this case, from the priest taking the passage literally. The Bible is full of anthropomorphism and hyperbole. The same Bible that says “God hated Esau” also says “God is love.” I'm willing to let the theologians fight it out, but I reserve the right to reject any theological concept that seems to distort God's nature.

The mocking is used to describe God in terms of human understanding. After all, God is directly quoted as mocking Adam in Genesis.

Genesis 3:22 Wrote:And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil:

Likewise, God cutting down the proud is often cited. Furthermore:

Isaias  55:8 Wrote:For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

And the Lord said: Thou art grieved for the ivy, for which thou hast not laboured, nor made it to grow, which in one night came up, and in one night perished.

Likewise, to overcome the seeming pettiness of God which one may be inclined to see in these clearly worded passages:

Jonas 4:10-11 Wrote:And the Lord said: Thou art grieved for the ivy, for which thou hast not laboured, nor made it to grow, which in one night came up, and in one night perished. And shall not I spare Ninive, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons that know not how to distinguish between their right hand and their left, and many beasts?

Clearly, this is a reflection of God's perfect justice and our ignorance.

This the reason for the General Judgement.

(02-05-2012, 10:12 PM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 09:32 PM)Silouan Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 09:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]It's not like the elect are laughing at the damned like spoiled children in the schoolyard but that they rightfully rejoice in God's justice. Who wouldn't, after all? God's justice is perfect.


It is indeed right to rejoice over God's justice, but it's not His justice that condemns those in hell. It is the rejection and negation of God's love that places them in hell. That is nothing for anyone to rejoice over.

That rejection of God's Mercy and Love is what places them in Hell with His Justice. The damned are where they always ultimately wanted to be. Their nature cannot be changed, they would not go to Heaven if they were allowed. 

Everything is as it should be in Heaven and Hell and that's enough to be joyful over.  Mercy is given, Justice has been shown.  To deny this is to question God's goodness and claim His Justice is some form of Injustice. 

God loves the damned more than any of us would or could.  So, the fact that they are damned must mean that it's right and those in Heaven see the "rightness" of God's flawless Judgement and perfect love in allowing them to remove themselves from His Mercy.

This.
(02-05-2012, 10:30 PM)su Wrote: [ -> ]The mocking is used to describe God in terms of human understanding.

I know that.. but I'm wondering if the priest giving the sermon understands that. Again, just to clarify, I'm not denying the blessed rejoice in God's justice. There is no sorrow for the blessed, not even over the souls in hell but we can't fully comprehend that right now.

Anyway, where do you see God mocking Adam and Eve in Genesis? I don't see those passages you quoted as mockery. On the other hand, I do see mockery or ridicule coming from the serpent, the devil.
(02-05-2012, 11:00 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 10:12 PM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 09:32 PM)Silouan Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 09:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]It's not like the elect are laughing at the damned like spoiled children in the schoolyard but that they rightfully rejoice in God's justice. Who wouldn't, after all? God's justice is perfect.


It is indeed right to rejoice over God's justice, but it's not His justice that condemns those in hell. It is the rejection and negation of God's love that places them in hell. That is nothing for anyone to rejoice over.

That rejection of God's Mercy and Love is what places them in Hell with His Justice. The damned are where they always ultimately wanted to be. Their nature cannot be changed, they would not go to Heaven if they were allowed. 

Everything is as it should be in Heaven and Hell and that's enough to be joyful over.  Mercy is given, Justice has been shown.  To deny this is to question God's goodness and claim His Justice is some form of Injustice. 

God loves the damned more than any of us would or could.  So, the fact that they are damned must mean that it's right and those in Heaven see the "rightness" of God's flawless Judgement and perfect love in allowing them to remove themselves from His Mercy.

This.

Indeed and this is a problem that most modernist can not understand. There is a tendency to look upon God as simply a big version of us. So view his ways as we view our ways. For God to give Heaven to those that belong in Hell would simply be performing injustice upon the just, it would be a violation of his perfect love for once rejected for eternity it can not be justified.

I think one of the greatest examples on Catholic theology is that of Dante's Paradiso in which he asks one who is in heaven if they feel any animosity/jealousy/unhappiness towards the fact that they are not higher meaning closer to God. In canto III Piccarda responds to Dante's curiosity.

"In His will is our peace. / It is that sea to which all things move, / both what it creates and what nature makes…"

The infinite divine will of God is our joy in all things.
(02-05-2012, 11:20 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 10:30 PM)su Wrote: [ -> ]The mocking is used to describe God in terms of human understanding.

I know that.. but I'm wondering if the priest giving the sermon understands that. Again, just to clarify, I'm not denying the blessed rejoice in God's justice. There is no sorrow for the blessed, not even over the souls in hell but we can't fully comprehend that right now.

Anyway, where do you see God mocking Adam and Eve in Genesis? I don't see those passages you quoted as mockery. On the other hand, I do see mockery or ridicule coming from the serpent, the devil.

He is an SSPX priest and I'd say that he does understand that. He can be a little dramatic in his sermons though, which some will like and others won't, just like some would prefer a drier theological sermon while others wouldn't. But it says it's # 5 of 5 of a sermon on hell so it would probably be good to listen to all of them to get a fuller picture of where he was going with it. I won't right this minute but probably tomorrow.
(02-05-2012, 11:20 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, where do you see God mocking Adam and Eve in Genesis? I don't see those passages you quoted as mockery. On the other hand, I do see mockery or ridicule coming from the serpent, the devil.
What I had quoted.

I cannot force anyone to see it as a form of mockery.

But it does show that what I see as mockery can be denied as being mockery, so therefore, the word "mockery" is applicable at least as some understand the word. You had written that you could not see God mocking the damned ones. I saw God mocking Adam, but you do not see it as such, so perhaps the mocking of the damned is the same situation. The word "mock" is applicable at least as used by some people. Therefore, you do not deny the reality (whatever words are used to express it) that may be expressed by the original disagreement.

0. Someone says God mocks the damned.
1. You disagree that God mocks the damned.
2. I say that God mocked Adam and gave an example.
3. You affirm the example as being true, but deny it is mockery.
4. Perhaps the first statement is in agreement with you as it was intended, although you would not have used the word mock.
(02-05-2012, 10:12 PM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 09:32 PM)Silouan Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2012, 09:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]It's not like the elect are laughing at the damned like spoiled children in the schoolyard but that they rightfully rejoice in God's justice. Who wouldn't, after all? God's justice is perfect.


It is indeed right to rejoice over God's justice, but it's not His justice that condemns those in hell. It is the rejection and negation of God's love that places them in hell. That is nothing for anyone to rejoice over.

That rejection of God's Mercy and Love is what places them in Hell with His Justice. The damned are where they always ultimately wanted to be. Their nature cannot be changed, they would not go to Heaven if they were allowed. 

Everything is as it should be in Heaven and Hell and that's enough to be joyful over.  Mercy is given, Justice has been shown.  To deny this is to question God's goodness and claim His Justice is some form of Injustice. 


God loves the damned more than any of us would or could.  So, the fact that they are damned must mean that it's right and those in Heaven see the "rightness" of God's flawless Judgement and perfect love in allowing them to remove themselves from His Mercy.


But God doesn't deal with us according to justice. St Isaac even goes so far as to say we should "not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in things concerning you." Hell is a negation of everything God is. A great tragedy of man's own doing. There is nothing good or just or holy about hell.
(02-06-2012, 12:15 AM)Silouan Wrote: [ -> ]But God doesn't deal with us according to justice. St Isaac even goes so far as to say we should "not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in things concerning you." Hell is a negation of everything God is. A great tragedy of man's own doing. There is nothing good or just or holy about hell.

Hell is set apart from what is good by God.

Genesis 1:3-5 Wrote:And God said: Be light made. And light was made. And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.
Note, that God created light, saw light was good, and divided the light from the darkness. Darkness is the absence of light, of what is good. Traditionally, this was taken to describe the creation of the angels, and the rebellious angels being cast out of Heaven. But, even so, that God specifically in the beginning creates something good and then specifically divides it from what is not created shows a special attention to the absence of what is good. Ie, that Hell, being not good, was designed by God specifically.

Therefore, its existence is just. God saw fit to divide light from darkness, from what is good and what is lacking what is good. How can that not be just?

And you are contradicting scripture:

Daniel 9:14 Wrote:And the Lord hath watched upon the evil, and hath brought it upon us: the Lord our God is just in all his works which he hath done: for we have not hearkened to his voice.

Romans 1:17 Wrote:For the justice of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith, as it is written: The just man liveth by faith.

Apocalypse 16:7 Wrote:And I heard another, from the altar, saying: Yea, O Lord God Almighty, true and just are thy judgments.

God's judgment is perfect, God's punishment is perfect. How could a soul not rejoice in perfection, once its eyes were opened to it? Some seem not to be able to conceive of this as anything beyond a petty Schadenfreude.
(02-06-2012, 01:21 AM)Graham Wrote: [ -> ]God's judgment is perfect, God's punishment is perfect. How could a soul not rejoice in perfection, once its eyes were opened to it? Some seem not to be able to conceive of this as anything beyond a petty Schadenfreude.

Well said. There's much here that could be added to my Unconscious Modernism thread.
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