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(02-14-2012, 04:27 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:23 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:21 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:19 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:18 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 03:49 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 02:59 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty sure that a practice that is at least 500+ years old is not modern   :P

Pretty sure that it is in comparison to a practice 1500 years older :P

You didn't say modern in comparison, you just said modern which is wrong.

Eh, 500 years is basically modern.

No.

Yes. The Protestant Reformation started about 500 years ago. That's not modern?

Not in common parlance, besides the practice must be older than 500 years.

In contemporary parlance, the Modern period begins in 1500, or even 1476.  So yeah, Trent is modern.
(02-14-2012, 06:22 PM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:27 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:23 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:21 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:19 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 04:18 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 03:49 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 02:59 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty sure that a practice that is at least 500+ years old is not modern   :P

Pretty sure that it is in comparison to a practice 1500 years older :P

You didn't say modern in comparison, you just said modern which is wrong.

Eh, 500 years is basically modern.

No.

Yes. The Protestant Reformation started about 500 years ago. That's not modern?

Not in common parlance, besides the practice must be older than 500 years.

In contemporary parlance, the Modern period begins in 1500, or even 1476.  So yeah, Trent is modern.

Give me strength  :eyeroll:
"Modernity typically refers to a post-traditional, post-medieval historical period, one marked by the move from feudalism (or agrarianism) toward capitalism, industrialization, secularization, rationalization, the nation-state and its constituent institutions and forms of surveillance (Barker 2005, 444). Conceptually, modernity relates to the modern era and to modernism, but forms a distinct concept. Whereas the Enlightenment invokes a specific movement in Western philosophy, modernity tends to refer only to the social relations associated with the rise of capitalism. Modernity may also refer to tendencies in intellectual culture, particularly the movements intertwined with secularisation and post-industrial life, such as Marxism, existentialism, and the formal establishment of social science. In context, modernity has been associated with cultural and intellectual movements of 1436—1789 and extending to the 1970s or later (Toulmin 1992, 3–5)."

It's what people mean by 'Modern.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernity

Not communin babies is a late, late Medieval practice if not straight-up Modern, as they were still regulalrly Confirming and Communing babies in Dante's time in urban Italy.
(02-14-2012, 06:51 PM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]"Modernity typically refers to a post-traditional, post-medieval historical period, one marked by the move from feudalism (or agrarianism) toward capitalism, industrialization, secularization, rationalization, the nation-state and its constituent institutions and forms of surveillance (Barker 2005, 444). Conceptually, modernity relates to the modern era and to modernism, but forms a distinct concept. Whereas the Enlightenment invokes a specific movement in Western philosophy, modernity tends to refer only to the social relations associated with the rise of capitalism. Modernity may also refer to tendencies in intellectual culture, particularly the movements intertwined with secularisation and post-industrial life, such as Marxism, existentialism, and the formal establishment of social science. In context, modernity has been associated with cultural and intellectual movements of 1436—1789 and extending to the 1970s or later (Toulmin 1992, 3–5)."

It's what people mean by 'Modern.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernity

Not communin babies is a late, late Medieval practice, as they were still regulalrly Confirming and Communing babies in Dante's time in urban Italy.

Which does not at all mean that is what it will be taken to be mean, what it actually meant or what is means in common parlance, especially when people associate 'Modern' with the last 50 years or so, people that is not historians and even more so when modern is associated with Vatican 2.
(02-14-2012, 06:54 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 06:51 PM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]"Modernity typically refers to a post-traditional, post-medieval historical period, one marked by the move from feudalism (or agrarianism) toward capitalism, industrialization, secularization, rationalization, the nation-state and its constituent institutions and forms of surveillance (Barker 2005, 444). Conceptually, modernity relates to the modern era and to modernism, but forms a distinct concept. Whereas the Enlightenment invokes a specific movement in Western philosophy, modernity tends to refer only to the social relations associated with the rise of capitalism. Modernity may also refer to tendencies in intellectual culture, particularly the movements intertwined with secularisation and post-industrial life, such as Marxism, existentialism, and the formal establishment of social science. In context, modernity has been associated with cultural and intellectual movements of 1436—1789 and extending to the 1970s or later (Toulmin 1992, 3–5)."

It's what people mean by 'Modern.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernity

Not communin babies is a late, late Medieval practice, as they were still regulalrly Confirming and Communing babies in Dante's time in urban Italy.

Which does not at all mean that is what it will be taken to be mean, what it actually meant or what is means in common parlance, especially when people associate 'Modern' with the last 50 years or so, people that is not historians and even more so when modern is associated with Vatican 2.

I was taught that "Modern" meant after c. 1500 in High School.  Doesn't get any more standard parlance than that.
That's just historical parlance, Parmandur.

You know perfectly well that in common usage "modern" pertains to present and recent time, not to centuries past. Don't be disingenuous.
(02-14-2012, 07:02 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]That's just historical parlance, Parmandur.

You know perfectly well that in common usage "modern" pertains to present and recent time, not to centuries past. Don't be disingenuous.

In the usage I learned in secondary school, and have heard used in general conversation, it means events and ideas from the advent of printing onwards.  People sometimes use it to mean contemporary, but that ain't what it means.
(02-14-2012, 06:01 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]CITH, as it was introduced after Vatican II, resembled the Protestant communion not the practices of the early church.

It's spiritually harmful because it promotes sacrilege and disbelief in the Real Presence. That has nothing to do with the practice of delaying Holy Communion to infants which is considered "artificial" in Eastern churches simply because it became the norm in the West or because it was not practiced in the East by 1054. We're always coming back to the same argument.

No, it's not artificial in the East because it developed naturally in the west, it's artificial in the East because it never developed there at all.
(02-14-2012, 06:02 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry to break it up to you but the current wave of delatinisations is actually the imposition of discontinued Eastern practices on unwilling Easterners.

I'm not so sure about that.  I'm sure some individual easterners may prefer the Latin practices, but you paint a picture of nasty bishops forcing practices on an entire body of faithful that doesn't want them, and that's just not the case.  The most de-latinized parishes are the ones that are also the most booming with young people, and young families with lots of kids.  They want tradition just like you do, they just don't want your tradition.  The parishes that are more latinized are generally geriatric parishes.  The one instance where I have read of a significant number of people in a parish being upset about de-latinizing, the people complaining weren't easterners, but Latin refugees who didn't have a traditional parish of their own to go to.  Of course they didn't want the Latin traditions being scrapped, they were THEIR traditions.  They didn't have any loyalty to the parish, though, because once a traditional parish did form, they up and left anyway, and the de-latinization resumed without complaint.
(02-14-2012, 07:10 PM)Parmandur Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-14-2012, 07:02 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]That's just historical parlance, Parmandur.

You know perfectly well that in common usage "modern" pertains to present and recent time, not to centuries past. Don't be disingenuous.

In the usage I learned in secondary school, and have heard used in general conversation, it means events and ideas from the advent of printing onwards.  People sometimes use it to mean contemporary, but that ain't what it means.

You're being obtuse.

The word means "contemporary" as well and that's precisely the most common meaning ascribed to it. Go and check any dictionary if you want. This is a non-issue.

Quote:Modern
adjective

1. of or pertaining to present and recent time; not ancient or remote: modern city life.
2. characteristic of present and recent time; contemporary; not antiquated or obsolete: modern viewpoints.
3. of or pertaining to the historical period following the Middle Ages: modern European history.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of contemporary styles of art, literature, music, etc., that reject traditionally accepted or sanctioned forms and emphasize individual experimentation and sensibility.
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