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(02-15-2012, 08:38 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]Trent, there is only one point in your post reasonable enough to address.  You can say you're not trashing byzantine liturgies, but your complaining that we want to make byzantine liturgies less latin, and actually byzantine.  By making a byzantine liturgy look latin, you DO trash our liturgy. 

Whatever Melkite, I will pray for you, but I'm done dealing with your childish insecurities.
(02-15-2012, 03:40 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Of course not, but keep in mind that Eastern Catholics in the United States, for instance, share he same culture and language of Western Catholics.

???  :eyeroll:
they share the same language and a similar culture as the English and other northern Germanic protestants... the most foreign places I have been too have been romance speaking ones, give me Oslo or Belfast any day


anyways back on topic, good for the Melkites and other Eastern folk for restoring their traditions
(02-16-2012, 12:07 PM)Tobri Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-15-2012, 03:40 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Of course not, but keep in mind that Eastern Catholics in the United States, for instance, share he same culture and language of Western Catholics.

???  :eyeroll:
they share the same language and a similar culture as the English and other northern Germanic protestants... the most foreign places I have been too have been romance speaking ones, give me Oslo or Belfast any day


anyways back on topic, good for the Melkites and other Eastern folk for restoring their traditions

That's not what's happening.  They are being forced to reliinquish their traditions that they adopted from the Latin Church and made their own.  Modernist Rome is forcing this, and the bishop is doing it for his own similar or not reasons. 

But "the Melkites" en masse are not "restoring their traditions" any more than the Latins were "restoring" the bidding prayers in the Novus Ordo.
(02-16-2012, 02:35 PM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]That's not what's happening.  They are being forced to reliinquish their traditions that they adopted from the Latin Church and made their own.  Modernist Rome is forcing this, and the bishop is doing it for his own similar or not reasons. 

But "the Melkites" en masse are not "restoring their traditions" any more than the Latins were "restoring" the bidding prayers in the Novus Ordo.

No, you're still not acknowledging the problem.  The Melkite Church did not adopt traditions from the Latin Church and make them our own, they were forced on us and we were not allowed to practice the traditions that were already our own.  This point is crucial, and you cannot frame your argument correctly by denying the actual history by painting it as if it was something it was not.  Eastern Catholics were forced to adopt Latin practices, we were not merely offered them and chose to adopt them of our own accord.

It is true, though, the Melkites are not en masse restoring our traditions, because Latinization was never as severe in the Melkite Church as it was in the Ukrainian and Ruthenian churches.  Your entire argument against +Nicholas' actions has been that Melkites are being robbed of Latin practices that they want to practice.  In a sense, this is similar to the argument made against the Catholic Church by the US govt over the HHS mandate.  Your argument is that Melkites are being refused a practice, but that is wrong.  Melkites who want to practice as Latins can do so in Latin parishes.  No one is saying a Melkite or any other Eastern Catholic can't receive Latin practices in toto.  What is being said is, we will not offer them in our parishes, we will not be forced to offer them in our parishes.  You are arguing only for Melkites who want to be Latins (which, I'm sure, are actually relatively few) but still, no one who has been arguing against +Nicholas' command has answered where Melkites like me and others, who want to practice our Byzantine traditions, are supposed to go if the Latins take away the few parishes we have.  You may not intend it to be so, but ultimately,  your view is one of Latin superiority, that much cannot be denied.
This thread reminds me of a line from a poem by Rudyard Kipling:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West
And never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently
At God's great Judgment Seat!"

(02-16-2012, 03:30 PM)CrusaderKing Wrote: [ -> ]This thread reminds me of a line from a poem by Rudyard Kipling:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West
And never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently
At God's great Judgment Seat!"

Bar the maronites, the society of St Josaphat, and some other reasonable eastern catholics of Good will, I suspect that may be true.
(02-16-2012, 03:33 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-16-2012, 03:30 PM)CrusaderKing Wrote: [ -> ]This thread reminds me of a line from a poem by Rudyard Kipling:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West
And never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently
At God's great Judgment Seat!"

Bar the maronites, the society of St Josaphat, and some other reasonable eastern catholics of Good will, I suspect that may be true.

LOL.  Bar anyone that doesn't want to just be Latin Catholic anyway, you mean.
Music hath charms to sooth the savage beast....Sister Maria Keyrouz, Melkite Nun, sings the "Pieta"....
(02-16-2012, 03:39 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-16-2012, 03:33 PM)TrentCath Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-16-2012, 03:30 PM)CrusaderKing Wrote: [ -> ]This thread reminds me of a line from a poem by Rudyard Kipling:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West
And never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently
At God's great Judgment Seat!"


Bar the maronites, the society of St Josaphat, and some other reasonable eastern catholics of Good will, I suspect that may be true.

LOL.  Bar anyone that doesn't want to just be Latin Catholic anyway, you mean.


Yes, clearly, all eastern catholics who don't agree with your 'purity' nonsense actually want to be latin catholics  :eyeroll:

What a load of arrogant, presumptuous nonsense.

(02-16-2012, 03:14 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]No, you're still not acknowledging the problem.  The Melkite Church did not adopt traditions from the Latin Church and make them our own, they were forced on us and we were not allowed to practice the traditions that were already our own. 

I acknowledge most of that.  But the point you are missing is that the nature of "how" the traditions were brought in does not invalidate the adoption of those traditions.  No Melkite going to Church currently was "forced" to adopt a Latinization.  The Latinizations were already there. Now they are being "forced" to abandon things that they know and love for archaic reasoning.  The same reasoning the Novus Ordo was foisted on the Latin Church. 

The descendents of slaves in America do not need to be shipped back to Africa or the West Indies or Scotland in order to return to authentic living. 

Quote: This point is crucial, and you cannot frame your argument correctly by denying the actual history by painting it as if it was something it was not.

I'm not denying the actual history at all.  You are denying the effect of the history on the present day Melkites who don't want to abandon their Melkite traditions that came from the Latin Church, regardless of whether previous generations were forced or not.

Quote: Eastern Catholics were forced to adopt Latin practices, we were not merely offered them and chose to adopt them of our own accord.

And some were very effective and edifying to the people despite being "forced / required" and there were also willing and enthusiastic Eastern Churches that benefited from "Latinizations" now they are being forced to abandon them by the same modernistic heirarchy that wrecked the Latin Church. You don't think this is part of a set up in order soften up the Eastern Churches for a killing blow?
 

Quote: It is true, though, the Melkites are not en masse restoring our traditions, because Latinization was never as severe in the Melkite Church as it was in the Ukrainian and Ruthenian churches.

Not as severe or perhaps people find it spiritually beneficial? 

Quote: Your entire argument against +Nicholas' actions has been that Melkites are being robbed of Latin practices that they want to practice.

His argument is that the legitimate aspirations of Melkites who want to continue practicing the faith as they've known it doesn't matter because it's not his vision of a "pure Melkite." 

He doesn't make a rational argument based on the spiritual benefit and allow organic development to continue. It's an ethnic cleansing he's engaging in, not Shepherding a flock. 

Quote: In a sense, this is similar to the argument made against the Catholic Church by the US govt over the HHS mandate.

Your argument is that Melkites are being refused a practice, but that is wrong.

Melkites who recieved first Communions at the age of reason in Melkite Churches can or can't have the same for their children? 
 
Quote: Melkites who want to practice as Latins can do so in Latin parishes.
 

In other words it's Melkite above Catholic.  Any Melkite who practices a Latinized Tradition is no longer a Melkite.  Sort of like any Latin Catholic that wants a TLM is treated like an outsider.

Quote: No one is saying a Melkite or any other Eastern Catholic can't receive Latin practices in toto.

There has always been an all or nothing option for all Catholics who want to change rite. What is being discussed are the adopted practices from the Latin Church that have become a part of the tradition of the Melkite Church.  Those traditions are being taken away.  (whether one was required to adopt them in the past is irrelevant since they were accepted, every bit as much as pews.

Quote: What is being said is, we will not offer them in our parishes, we will not be forced to offer them in our parishes.

And you will force the parishes that do offer them to give them up. No Latinizations!  Want a Maronite liturgy there? Sure! But get that "Latin taint" out. 

Quote: You are arguing only for Melkites who want to be Latins (which, I'm sure, are actually relatively few) but still,

No. Just for Melkites who want to be Melkites as they've always known it. I don't want Polish Latin Churches to give up their Eastern influences if that's intrinsically beneficial for their souls.

Quote: no one who has been arguing against +Nicholas' command has answered where Melkites like me and others, who want to practice our Byzantine traditions, are supposed to go if the Latins take away the few parishes we have.

I don't think anyone is asking for more Latin traditions to be required. You are getting what you want. 

The question is, where are the Melkites who were strengthened and edified by those practices that are a part of their tradition, despite being originally from the Latin Church supposed to go in order to give their children what they had?

In the Latin Church, no papal order is going to dissolve the Novus Ordo. But it's going to die on it's own and maybe a few elements of it might be carried over into the restored Traditional Latin Church because they are genuinely beneficial. (fasting for longer periods may not be a matter under pain of mortal sin, but genuinely voluntary as one example) 

Quote: You may not intend it to be so, but ultimately,  your view is one of Latin superiority, that much cannot be denied.

No. My attitude is one of Catholic Supremacy over any particular rite.  I'm of Christ not Apollo,Kephas or Paul.

I've given up every tradition I grew up with because I was raised in the Novus Ordo. (You really want to talk about Rome forcing people to give up their traditions to TLM Latin rite Catholics?)
I didn't do it out of a counter-revolutionary mentality nor did I do it out of seeking a purity of my heritage ethnic or ecclesial. I did it because it was required for the benefit of my soul. Because the Novus Ordo forced a lot of intrinsically bad things on the populace. If the TLM dies completely around me and I'm faced with changing to Eastern Rites (with or without Latinizations) or the Novus Ordo then I'm going to be adopting the Eastern traditions. I live right by a Maronite Church but it's thoroughly modernist. So, even with that option there is danger involved.

There is no going back to being a simple Novus Ordo Catholic, there is no "pure" Pre Vatican II traditionalist since Vatican II is a part of the ambient in which we live, and if any Trad goes Eastern, he is forever affected by the grace of God working through those Eastern traditions so, if he goes back to the TLM, it will not be exactly the same. Just reading some of the Eastern prayers for Mass has changed the way I attend the TLM.  That is equally true for any Melkite who recieves grace through Latin Traditions as part of his Melkite upbringing.

Here's a story on a Melkite Church that does not deny it's past. 



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