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I honestly don't understand what Rome or Pope Benedict are expecting.  They aren't idiots.  They know as well as we do that the SSPX isn't going to suddenly compromise.  They know the clear lines in the sand which the SSPX has drawn.  So if Rome is just going to sit there and tell +Fellay that they need to accept VII and Conciliarism, why even go through all this trouble?

This just seems like a monumental waste of time for both parties.
Walty,

I think the Vatican wants a clear answer to the original "ultimatum" which was the Preamble. They didn't get a real answer to it, so that is insufficient. They want a clearer answer to the Preamble and I can totally understand that.

However, I think the SSPX made a mistake in their initial answer to the Preamble. Even now, I think they should respond with a simple statement to the effect that they hold and will hold everything in the Apostles', Nicean, and Athanasian Creeds, AND that they do and always will abide by any and all dogmas defined by the Catholic Church, under the authority of the Pope. As for VII, it is for the Pope and his Curia to specify what, if any, is the dogmatic content of VII. This would put the ball in the Vatican's court to clarify exactly what must be held, and the day the Vatican is forced to do this, all of the empty theologian-speak of VII will become evident, as will the fact that no one needs to hold to it. I really wish they had done something of this sort. Instead, the SSPX entered an arena already enveloped in VII lingo, and engaged in a theological discussion that did not lead to a clarification of VII. Anyway, maybe on the ground things were different. But now the hour is late.



(03-16-2012, 01:09 PM)Walty Wrote: [ -> ]I honestly don't understand what Rome or Pope Benedict are expecting.  They aren't idiots.  They know as well as we do that the SSPX isn't going to suddenly compromise.  They know the clear lines in the sand which the SSPX has drawn.  So if Rome is just going to sit there and tell +Fellay that they need to accept VII and Conciliarism, why even go through all this trouble?

This just seems like a monumental waste of time for both parties.
Unless Pope Benedict XVI [who understands the Societys complaints well] is being kept out of the loop or is handcuffed, and the liberals in the curia are steering this issue themselves.
I don't think this is what most u think this is. It seems to me that the Pope is putting pressure on the CDF to come up with a resolution. Remember the last thing we had heard was that the lib Bishop panel had already made a judgement on the matter so why go back to Bishop Fellay unless B16 did not like their answer.
Can't the Pope just declare the SSPX regularized?
(03-16-2012, 01:57 PM)JustaServant Wrote: [ -> ]Can't the Pope just declare the SSPX regularized?
Yes he does have the power to do that.
I could be wrong but I think this much more than it appears. Pope Benedict wants theS SPX back, and the Vatican doesn't. I don't have a good crystal ball but I'll bet there are several different groups which oppose his wishes all of which are wrapped up in semi-truths, starting with Cardinal Levada. If the opposition to the SSPX in the Vatican prevails we are in for real trouble. This in my estimation is the last stand for these forces. If they prevail there will be no Consecration, and the annihilation will come.

Cor Jesu Sacratissimum miserere nobis.

tim 
(03-16-2012, 01:25 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]Walty,

I think the Vatican wants a clear answer to the original "ultimatum" which was the Preamble. They didn't get a real answer to it, so that is insufficient. They want a clearer answer to the Preamble and I can totally understand that.

However, I think the SSPX made a mistake in their initial answer to the Preamble. Even now, I think they should respond with a simple statement to the effect that they hold and will hold everything in the Apostles', Nicean, and Athanasian Creeds, AND that they do and always will abide by any and all dogmas defined by the Catholic Church, under the authority of the Pope. As for VII, it is for the Pope and his Curia to specify what, if any, is the dogmatic content of VII. This would put the ball in the Vatican's court to clarify exactly what must be held, and the day the Vatican is forced to do this, all of the empty theologian-speak of VII will become evident, as will the fact that no one needs to hold to it. I really wish they had done something of this sort. Instead, the SSPX entered an arena already enveloped in VII lingo, and engaged in a theological discussion that did not lead to a clarification of VII. Anyway, maybe on the ground things were different. But now the hour is late.

I understand what you're saying, but it's clear from this that Rome has no desire to go back and define the conciliar documents as the consensus is still being used as the definition of those documents.  If they're absolutely unwilling to budge on the documents themselves, that implies that they believe the documents to be vitally important, and they can only be vitally important if Rome believes that they are being implemented and understood correctly.  

What is it about the SSPX that would make Rome desire to acquiesce and revisit the Council?  Rome, as a whole, does not care very much about the regularization about the SSPX.  The only possibility that would make what you mentioned possible is if Pope Benedict really is a closet trad, or trad leaning, and wanted to use this as a recourse to reopen the question of the Council, but I think most of us have come to realize that Pope Benedict is not a closet trad.

I think the basic answer from Rome in such a case would be, "The documents of the Council must be interpreted as they have been, which is laid out in the new Catechism."
(03-16-2012, 02:00 PM)Tim Wrote: [ -> ]I could be wrong but I think this much more than it appears. Pope Benedict wants theS SPX back, and the Vatican doesn't. I don't have a good crystal ball but I'll bet there are several different groups which oppose his wishes all of which are wrapped up in semi-truths, starting with Cardinal Levada. If the opposition to the SSPX in the Vatican prevails we are in for real trouble. This in my estimation is the last stand for these forces. If they prevail there will be no Consecration, and the annihilation will come.

Cor Jesu Sacratissimum miserere nobis.

tim 

That's the sense I have too, Tim.  What a strange situation.
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